Eclipse voting

[Linny]

It's not all turf writers. How about racing secretaries at Magna tracks who probably but Stronach over the top for Leading Owner and Breeder. Stronach didn't own or breed a champion but gets both honors? Stonerside bred Midshipman and Raven's Pass (not a champion but the winner of the BCC and a Euro G1) and gets nothing. Maybe it's because they sold out to Sh. Mohammed?
IEAH (who I'm not crazy about) campaigned 2 champions, won the Derby and Preakness, had the #2 juvie filly and a leading turfer (Kip) and got nothing.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Linny

It's not all turf writers. How about racing secretaries at Magna tracks who probably but Stronach over the top for Leading Owner and Breeder. Stronach didn't own or breed a champion but gets both honors? Stonerside bred Midshipman and Raven's Pass (not a champion but the winner of the BCC and a Euro G1) and gets nothing. Maybe it's because they sold out to Sh. Mohammed?
IEAH (who I'm not crazy about) campaigned 2 champions, won the Derby and Preakness, had the #2 juvie filly and a leading turfer (Kip) and got nothing.

but it doesn't come down to who won the big ones, adena is a perennial leader on the breeding side. i can see an argument for stonerside-altho i don't think the part about giving it to them because they're now out of business was a compelling reason. a horse shouldn't win year end awards based on one big race, neither should an owner or breeder. i can see making an argument for ieah, but i don't think adena was necessarily a bad choice.

[Linny]

Adena/Stronach are perennial leaders and I don't think they were bad choices, but not the best choices. I know they bred and raced alot of leading horses as they always do but IEAH doesn't have that many horses and they earned 2 Eclipses and campaigned several other G1 type horses like Laragh and Kip Deville and Court Vision. It's rare that I defend these guys but I'd have voted for them here.
On the breeding side McNair may have been overlooked because he sold out but he did breed to BC winners, a Juvie champ and a horse who was a serious G1 miler in Europe that won the Classic here. What Raven's Pass accomplished was something that Giant's Causeway and Sahkee couldn't, and that's saying alot. Also, it's not fair to withhold a vote for Stonerside because he sold out. He bred those 2 BC winners and at least at the start of their careers, he raced them. Commercial breeders are eligible to get the Eclipse so why should Stonerside be.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Linny

Adena/Stronach are perennial leaders and I don't think they were bad choices, but not the best choices. I know they bred and raced alot of leading horses as they always do but IEAH doesn't have that many horses and they earned 2 Eclipses and campaigned several other G1 type horses like Laragh and Kip Deville and Court Vision. It's rare that I defend these guys but I'd have voted for them here.
On the breeding side McNair may have been overlooked because he sold out but he did breed to BC winners, a Juvie champ and a horse who was a serious G1 miler in Europe that won the Classic here. What Raven's Pass accomplished was something that Giant's Causeway and Sahkee couldn't, and that's saying alot. Also, it's not fair to withhold a vote for Stonerside because he sold out. He bred those 2 BC winners and at least at the start of their careers, he raced them. Commercial breeders are eligible to get the Eclipse so why should Stonerside be.

This is off-topic a little bit but I really hate reading comments like this. It's not what Giant's Causeway and Sakhee COULDN'T do is what they DIDN'T do. Both of those horses ran winning races, perhaps both of them were better efforts than Raven's Pass but they happened to face a better horse than Raven's Pass did and they didn't win their races.

[Linny]

So in theory if Giant's Causeway and Sahkee had run against easier company (no Tiznow) they'd have won? True, but... Champions are not supposed to seek easier company.

Maybe "didn't" would have been a better term. In fact, GC was probably a better horse than Raven, but Raven never had to beat Giant. What Raven's Pass DID do is something that (IMO) should have when coupled with Midshipman's efforts, earned his breeder the Eclipse.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Linny

So in theory if Giant's Causeway and Sahkee had run against easier company (no Tiznow) they'd have won? True, but... Champions are not supposed to seek easier company.

Maybe "didn't" would have been a better term. In fact, GC was probably a better horse than Raven, but Raven never had to beat Giant. What Raven's Pass DID do is something that (IMO) should have when coupled with Midshipman's efforts, earned his breeder the Eclipse.

I agree with you on the Eclipse award. I also don't think it was your intent to say that Raven's Pass was better or more special than those other horses were. It's just a sore point with me. It's like how some people think Charismatic and War Emblem are special because they won 2/3 of the TC while a horse like Easy Goer "couldn't". Circumstances often get overlooked and horses get their values thrown out of whack because people just look at the end results instead of what led to those results.

[Linny]

Context is everything and in voting for year end awards (just like in the races) they horses don't have to beat historical standards, just the immediate competition. Charismatic won 2/3 of the TC and so did Spectacular Bid and Native Dancer...so?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I agree with you on the Eclipse award. I also don't think it was your intent to say that Raven's Pass was better or more special than those other horses were. It's just a sore point with me. It's like how some people think Charismatic and War Emblem are special because they won 2/3 of the TC while a horse like Easy Goer "couldn't". Circumstances often get overlooked and horses get their values thrown out of whack because people just look at the end results instead of what led to those results.

good post. you think you could send it to jess jackson?