Pletcher BC positive; Hearing pending

[Honu]

Originally Posted by CSC

Mepivacaine basically allows a horse to run his/her heart out because it dulls any pain to a horse. You can imagine the effect this would have on a horse's performance. Notable trainer's to have tested positive for having Mepivacaine in their horses are Dutrow, Mullins, Asmussen, and Pletcher. The how many nanograms is a mute issue if you ask me, the question should be why was it in a horse's system in the first place, the answer to me is obvious if you see what the common trait of the vast majority of these trainers horses strengths are/were. There's a common thread.

Mepivicane is also used as a diagnostic tool to find lameness , you block a horse out starting at the foot and work your way up until it blocks out or not .
My thought on the Mepivicane positive is that most likely one of the Asst. had a horse blocked out found the problem treated it and then perhaps didnt bother to tell the boss exactly when the horse was blocked to avoid being entered too early , the boss entered and boom he gets a positive, because I just cant imiagine someone actually thinking they could get away with treating a horse with Mepivicane for a race and thinking thay can get away with it , at least not at the level TAP races at. Once again Im sticking with knocking all the Asst, Trainers heads together and telling them to either pull their heads out of their ass or leave. Its just plain retarded that someone cant keep track of what the hell is going on.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Honu

Mepivicane is also used as a diagnostic tool to find lameness , you block a horse out starting at the foot and work your way up until it blocks out or not .
My thought on the Mepivicane positive is that most likely one of the Asst. had a horse blocked out found the problem treated it and then perhaps didnt bother to tell the boss exactly when the horse was blocked to avoid being entered too early , the boss entered and boom he gets a positive, because I just cant imiagine someone actually thinking they could get away with treating a horse with Mepivicane for a race and thinking thay can get away with it , at least not at the level TAP races at. Once again Im sticking with knocking all the Asst, Trainers heads together and telling them to either pull their heads out of their ass or leave. Its just plain retarded that someone cant keep track of what the hell is going on.

you might have a reasonable point except this was WAIT A WHILE... maybe the best horse in his entire barn and everyone knew where her next start would be, in what race, on what day.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by philcski

you might have a reasonable point except this was WAIT A WHILE... maybe the best horse in his entire barn and everyone knew where her next start would be, in what race, on what day.

Exactly my point......

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Honu

Exactly my point......

so you think the asst trainer f*cked up and gave her the medvipcane too close to race time and didn't tell him for fear of getting fired or something?

[Honu]

Originally Posted by philcski

so you think the asst trainer f*cked up and gave her the medvipcane too close to race time and didn't tell him for fear of getting fired or something?

I think with Wait A While and her Pen. positive they most likely thought they were in the clear but didnt bother to absolutly sure , I know I would have had her tested to make sure.
With the Mepivicane positive I really do think the Asst. screwed up , he and the vet prolly blocked the horse out for whatever reason , found the problem and then perhaps didnt relay the 411 in detail to the boss.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by philcski

so you think the asst trainer f*cked up and gave her the medvipcane too close to race time and didn't tell him for fear of getting fired or something?

Wait a While got a procaine pen positive and they knowingly treated her 18 days out. The CA drug rules supposedly state that 15 days is the reccomended withdrawl time (which is really strange since almost everyone agrees that 21 days is not even a safe day) for PP. The vet assured him and supposedly they have that in writing that the horse would be ok. Why they didnt prerace test her and be safe I dont know. Why anyone would think that PP would be 99% (there is no 100% sure) chance of being clear is unknown. It is a readily known fact that the detectable levels of PP can linger for up to 28 days and considering the Breeders Cup has as complete testing as any race in this country it was a really bad mistake. But I would strongly suggest that there was zero percent chance that the levels found were performance enhancing.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Wait a While got a procaine pen positive and they knowingly treated her 18 days out. The CA drug rules supposedly state that 15 days is the reccomended withdrawl time (which is really strange since almost everyone agrees that 21 days is not even a safe day) for PP. The vet assured him and supposedly they have that in writing that the horse would be ok. Why they didnt prerace test her and be safe I dont know. Why anyone would think that PP would be 99% (there is no 100% sure) chance of being clear is unknown. It is a readily known fact that the detectable levels of PP can linger for up to 28 days and considering the Breeders Cup has as complete testing as any race in this country it was a really bad mistake. But I would strongly suggest that there was zero percent chance that the levels found were performance enhancing.

Of course. I have no doubt about that, especially given which specimen the positive was found on (a filly that didn't need any "enhancing".) I'm just trying to grasp what Honu was suggesting.

Question... if they prerace test and find a trace level, is she automatically scratched?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by philcski

Of course. I have no doubt about that, especially given which specimen the positive was found on (a filly that didn't need any "enhancing".) I'm just trying to grasp what Honu was suggesting.

Question... if they prerace test and find a trace level, is she automatically scratched?

I dont know but in HK they give you the option to scratch or take your chances the drug will be out of the system before the race. of course if it isnt there is hell to pay.

the other positive was pretty close to Honu's explanaation as the story goes. it is entirely plausible considering that these guys have huge outfits and hundreds of horses and the assistants are doing most of the training in some places. That is one of the downsides of having a huge stable

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Wait a While got a procaine pen positive and they knowingly treated her 18 days out. The CA drug rules supposedly state that 15 days is the reccomended withdrawl time (which is really strange since almost everyone agrees that 21 days is not even a safe day) for PP. The vet assured him and supposedly they have that in writing that the horse would be ok. Why they didnt prerace test her and be safe I dont know. Why anyone would think that PP would be 99% (there is no 100% sure) chance of being clear is unknown. It is a readily known fact that the detectable levels of PP can linger for up to 28 days and considering the Breeders Cup has as complete testing as any race in this country it was a really bad mistake. But I would strongly suggest that there was zero percent chance that the levels found were performance enhancing.

Its actually 14 to 21 days in cali. depending if it was topical or injectable , for topical its 21 days is the suggestion and for injectable its 14.
Either way , if Tap is so meticulas and into fine detail he would have tested the horse , I would have , we have done it with maidens so why wouldnt you do it with your big horse. If I were your asst, Shell wouldnt you want me to say hey boss I wanted you ask about the Pen. treatment for our mare , do you think we should test her to make sure? Im just asking as a person who is your second command wouldnt you want that compitence.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Honu

Its actually 14 to 21 days in cali. depending if it was topical or injectable , for topical its 21 days is the suggestion and for injectable its 14.
Either way , if Tap is so meticulas and into fine detail he would have tested the horse , I would have , we have done it with maidens so why wouldnt you do it with your big horse. If I were your asst, Shell wouldnt you want me to say hey boss I wanted you ask about the Pen. treatment for our mare , do you think we should test her to make sure? Im just asking as a person who is your second command wouldnt you want that compitence.

No question about it. Hell Pletcher knew what they were treating her with and the time frame so really it isnt the assistants responsibility in this case, it is Todds. I dont understand why they didnt test her beforehand like you said. Personally we are very conservative with our withdrawl times as i find it hard to believe that most meds have much effect at the listed withdrawl time so why not give yourself a little more leeway. I had a positive for a med last summer and we stopped 48 hours before the suggested withdrawl time in KY which is 72 hours longer than every other state. Since it was a minor violation we were just fined and no purse change or suspension but the withdrawl times listed dont necessarily mean you are safe.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Honu

Mepivicane is also used as a diagnostic tool to find lameness , you block a horse out starting at the foot and work your way up until it blocks out or not .
My thought on the Mepivicane positive is that most likely one of the Asst. had a horse blocked out found the problem treated it and then perhaps didnt bother to tell the boss exactly when the horse was blocked to avoid being entered too early , the boss entered and boom he gets a positive, because I just cant imiagine someone actually thinking they could get away with treating a horse with Mepivicane for a race and thinking thay can get away with it , at least not at the level TAP races at. Once again Im sticking with knocking all the Asst, Trainers heads together and telling them to either pull their heads out of their ass or leave. Its just plain retarded that someone cant keep track of what the hell is going on.

Come now, that's just way to easy an excuse. I'm sure Mr. Pletcher knows exactly what is going on in his stable. From what I have read and heard of him he is a person of immaculate detail.