Tips/Thoughts on Breeders' Cup tickets this year?

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i really wish i could remember where i saw the article about the 'euro turfers better than us tufers' thing being far from true. stats don't back it up at all. the top turf horses there run on very soft, very deep turf. not all horses like that, and come here to find firmer ground. and of course running on lasix helps as well. comparing their best turfers to our best could be the apples vs oranges type comparison-kind of like when you have curlin vs the top euros. how do you really decide who's better, since a top turf horse generally won't face a top dirt horse?

Miesque, High Chaparral, Fantastic Light, Theatrical, Kalanisi, Daylami, Pebbles, Lashkari, Pilsudski, Red Rocks, Shirocco, Barathea, Miss Alleged, Tikkanen, In the Wings, Ouija Board, Islington, Six Perfections, Banks Hill, Domedriver, Spinning World, Ridgewood Pearl and Last Tycoon, not to mention Rock of Gibraltar, Bago, Azamour, etc. would all like to see this article.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Miesque, High Chaparral, Fantastic Light, Theatrical, Kalanisi, Daylami, Pebbles, Lashkari, Pilsudski, Red Rocks, Shirocco, Barathea, Miss Alleged, Tikkanen, In the Wings, Ouija Board, Islington, Six Perfections, Banks Hill, Domedriver, Spinning World, Ridgewood Pearl and Last Tycoon, not to mention Rock of Gibraltar, Bago, Azamour, etc. would all like to see this article.

it wasn't just in reference to the bc, but all turf racing here.
hey, i didn't write the thing. but i do remember reading it.

[Danzig]

been searching, but haven't found that article yet...

but i did find one, in late october '06. it states that the euros as of then had won 12 of 22 bc turf races. that's one more than half. now, how is that domination? they are just ahead in the stats at that time, seems evenly split, not the domination i keep hearing about.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Danzig

been searching, but haven't found that article yet...

but i did find one, in late october '06. it states that the euros as of then had won 12 of 22 bc turf races. that's one more than half. now, how is that domination? they are just ahead in the stats at that time, seems evenly split, not the domination i keep hearing about.

Keep in mind, on average, I'd guess the BC Turf draws 4-5 Euros and 9-10 Americans, so being >50% is a definitive statistical advantage.
(I guess they're 13-24 now with Red Rocks and English Channel added now... although with the dead heat in '03 I think they'd have to count a win for both)

That being said, they rarely send their top stock. It always seems to be their 2nd tier group, this year no different.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by philcski

Keep in mind, on average, I'd guess the BC Turf draws 4-5 Euros and 9-10 Americans, so being >50% is a definitive statistical advantage.
(I guess they're 13-24 now with Red Rocks and English Channel added now... although with the dead heat in '03 I think they'd have to count a win for both)

That being said, they rarely send their top stock. It always seems to be their 2nd tier group, this year no different.

i don't know that you can say they don't send their best-ouija board was certainly one of the best. i think the best who don't run in the arc end up coming-it's a tricky time of year for their horses. i know at least one juvie that was supposed to show ended up not coming since her winter coat came in. too warm for them in cali, and they said that generally you see a bit of a drop in a horses efforts once they get that coat going.

i'm not disputing that on average the euros have better turfers, i just don't think it's this huge dominating thing they've got going as some seem to think. since it's pretty much an exclusive type of racing for them, and turf is secondary here, i'd think it would stand to reason that they would have an edge since it's all they concentrate on. also, it's not as tho we can't breed a good turf horse, they get bred quite often in ky-and invariably end up overseas after being purchased at auction. we export our best and brightest turfers, everyone here focuses on dirt. with good reason i'd say, look at how much emphasis is placed on the classic here, not the turf. it's where the money's at.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by Danzig

been searching, but haven't found that article yet...

but i did find one, in late october '06. it states that the euros as of then had won 12 of 22 bc turf races. that's one more than half. now, how is that domination? they are just ahead in the stats at that time, seems evenly split, not the domination i keep hearing about.

Considering the ship, change in climate (when racing in SoCal, FLA) the fact that most Euro's are beyond their best races when they get here etc, I think it's a fine record. Also, while those listed above all ran well in BC races, several, Domedriver, Lashkari, Tikkanen and don't forget Arcangues were not considered the very best in Europe.
As for all Euro's liking soft going, it's a myth. Dylan Thomas was undone by the soft going at Mon. Remember, they almost scratched because he didn't like soft. Daylami did his best in Europe on firmer going and when Euro's go to the Mid-East and Asia they often get rock hard turf and still win. This myth is like the one that holds that all Euro's are routers. Guess what, they've been runing G1 sprints on grass in Europe for ages now! I just wish that some of their sprinters would come here for the BC. I'd have thought the SA course might have suited them, though most as used to to a straightaway sprint.

[CSC]

If my memory is correct, Arcangues is the only European horse to go turf to dirt to win the Classic, ironically it was at Santa Anita hunch players.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by CSC

If my memory is correct, Arcangues is the only European horse to go turf to dirt to win the Classic, ironically it was at Santa Anita hunch players.

Right, but he beat a very weak field, and Sahkee, Giant's Causeway, and even Ibn Bay all ran much better in defeat.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Right, but he beat a very weak field, and Sahkee, Giant's Causeway, and even Ibn Bay all ran much better in defeat.

Giant's Causeway ran a heck of a race to Tiznow.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Linny

Considering the ship, change in climate (when racing in SoCal, FLA) the fact that most Euro's are beyond their best races when they get here etc, I think it's a fine record. Also, while those listed above all ran well in BC races, several, Domedriver, Lashkari, Tikkanen and don't forget Arcangues were not considered the very best in Europe.
As for all Euro's liking soft going, it's a myth. Dylan Thomas was undone by the soft going at Mon. Remember, they almost scratched because he didn't like soft. Daylami did his best in Europe on firmer going and when Euro's go to the Mid-East and Asia they often get rock hard turf and still win. This myth is like the one that holds that all Euro's are routers. Guess what, they've been runing G1 sprints on grass in Europe for ages now! I just wish that some of their sprinters would come here for the BC. I'd have thought the SA course might have suited them, though most as used to to a straightaway sprint.

but i don't think their idea of firm going is what we classify as firm. they all water their tracks when there isn't rain. i know some don't like the softer footing, but their tracks are still rather deep-and far from the firm footing in places such as santa anita.

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Miesque, High Chaparral, Fantastic Light, Theatrical, Kalanisi, Daylami, Pebbles, Lashkari, Pilsudski, Red Rocks, Shirocco, Barathea, Miss Alleged, Tikkanen, In the Wings, Ouija Board, Islington, Six Perfections, Banks Hill, Domedriver, Spinning World, Ridgewood Pearl and Last Tycoon, not to mention Rock of Gibraltar, Bago, Azamour, etc. would all like to see this article.

.......thats some list of horses......pilsudski set me free......