Curlin's Legacy

[ELA]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

You could argue Curlin tailed off, too (at least during the summer). Didn't everyone write him off as some sort of grinder after his modest Haskell effort?

Also, though they pad his resume now, weren't the JCGC and BC Classic wins considered mild upsets (in the sense that Lawyer Ron was odds-on at Belmont and Curlin was 3rd or 4th choice in the Classic) at the time?

Either way, had Street Sense returned at 4, I think he would have beaten Curlin more times than not in races contested at 9f. Further than that and the reverse would be likely.

I don't know that the argument of Curlin tailing off is feasible, at least not to those who didn't write him off as a grinder-type or think he was beginning to tail off after the Haskell. Personally, I didn't write him off due to either, especially him being some sort of grinder. If the tailing off argument was out there, I think the JCGC put that to rest. To my surprise, I didn't hear the "grinder" argument. Most qualified opinions I heard were not along those lines at all. I also think during the summer, many people got caught up in the Lawyer Ron monster performances, and they were nothing short of being that. Maybe it was horse for course, a freak thing, or I don't know what.

As far as Street Sense coming back at 4 -- well, what should have, could have, would have . . . Unfortunately we'll never know. Last year, I thought throughout the year, Curlin was getting better. He was gaining experience, seasoning, battle scars, etc. Personally, I don't feel I can say the same thing about Street Sense.

I'm sorry it's something that has to be hypothesized. Excellent points though, and thanks.

Eric

[King Glorious]

I think Curlin was the top 3yo of last year but I don't think it was definititve. A short nose in the Preakness and he would have had a losing record against Street Sense. The dominance of the BC Classic is what seemed to make everyone think it was definitive but because of the track conditions, I don't know if you can say that. While I don't hold it against him that he lost to a filly in the Belmont because I thought that filly was top class, even if the results would have been reversed and it was his head in front at the wire, the tight finish in the race would have further proved that while he was the best, the margin was close.

As for this year, I'm not fooled. I haven't seen a better horse this year than I saw in the fall of last year. I like to see improvement from the 3yo to 4yo season and I just haven't. I've seen a horse that's beat up on third rate competition all year long. Obviously, who he faces is not something that's in his control but his performances are and they just haven't done it for me. The sad thing is that the state of the game is so bad right now that he's still the leading candidate for HOY.

I'd go with saying he was the best of last year's 3yo class. He is arguably among the top 10 of the 2000's (although off the top of my head, I just came up with six I'd put ahead of him and that was with little thought). One of the all-time greats? Not in the opinion of this guy. Of all of the horses that I've personally watched in the 22 years I've been following horses, I'd guess Curlin might fall in the 51-75 range. That's really disappointing to me because after watching his Arkansas Derby, I would have thought he was surely on his way to my personal all-time top 20, at least.

[Slewbopper]

After the DWC I was ready to anoint him as a great horse. His four races since have been nothing more than workmanlike. He does do one thing though. He wins. I don't think anyone can name a horse that came back from Dubai and performed at the same level. Cigar started tailing of a little. So did Silver Charm. Street Cry showed great promise but didn't win after the Foster. Pleasantly Perfect was affected. As was Roses in May.

With that said, I love the horse and hope he kicks ass in the BCC.

BTW, where the hell is Lincoln Fields?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Slewbopper

After the DWC I was ready to anoint him as a great horse. His four races since have been nothing more than workmanlike. He does do one thing though. He wins. I don't think anyone can name a horse that came back from Dubai and performed at the same level. Cigar started tailing of a little. So did Silver Charm. Street Cry showed great promise but didn't win after the Foster. Pleasantly Perfect was affected. As was Roses in May.

With that said, I love the horse and hope he kicks ass in the BCC.

BTW, where the hell is Lincoln Fields?

I don't agree that Cigar tailed off. He just faced better horses in the fall of 1996 than he was facing in 1995. In 1995, the other horses to hit the board in the JCGC and BC Classic were Unaccounted For, Star Standard, and La Carriere. In 1996, it was Skip Away, Louis Quatorze, and Alphabet Soup. Compare the records of the two sets of horses. Perhaps if the two seasons had been switched around, Cigar would have never won 16 in a row and it would look like he got better in 1996. He ran his 1996 Woodward a touch faster than 1995. His 1996 JCGC was faster than the previous year also. Better competition will always make a horse look worse than when he's facing mediocre comp.

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't agree that Cigar tailed off. He just faced better horses in the fall of 1996 than he was facing in 1995. In 1995, the other horses to hit the board in the JCGC and BC Classic were Unaccounted For, Star Standard, and La Carriere. In 1996, it was Skip Away, Louis Quatorze, and Alphabet Soup. Compare the records of the two sets of horses. Perhaps if the two seasons had been switched around, Cigar would have never won 16 in a row and it would look like he got better in 1996. He ran his 1996 Woodward a touch faster than 1995. His 1996 JCGC was faster than the previous year also. Better competition will always make a horse look worse than when he's facing mediocre comp.

Good post.. I never agreed that Cigar tailed off.. If he did, where did his 96 Woodward effort come from?

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by KirisClown

Good post.. I never agreed that Cigar tailed off.. If he did, where did his 96 Woodward effort come from?

ok by the time he had the arlington cigar challenge he could have been beat by any number of horses......i was there he was not at all impressive

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

ok by the time he had the arlington cigar challenge he could have been beat by any number of horses......i was there he was not at all impressive

But then he came back and ran Skip Away to a neck in the JCGC while giving him five pounds and running faster than he had the year before. And we know what kind of horse Skip Away was. Skip Away, Louis Quatorze, and Alphabet Soup were light years better than what he was facing in 1995. If he would have had a chance to face his 1995 competition again in the fall of 1996, he would have had repeat wins in those races. Who knows how 1995 would have played out had Holy Bull not been injured?