Big Brown WOW!!!!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ELA

He wasn't surrounded by 2 BC winners, and so on -- but he won a very good race. However, let's keep in mind that a G1 turf race is very different from what we saw yesterday -- very different!

Come on now.

Red Rocks and Better Talk Now might both be one-time Breeders Cup Turf winners - but they are completely not that much horse anymore.

I believe Better Talk Now was just off the board in a race won by the mediocre Champs Elyseeys. Red Rocks went off at 98/1 odds in the Hong Kong Vase with Dettori up - and was soundly beaten in the Coronation in his final Euro start.

They aren't exactly Manilla and Theatrical.

Am I the only one who thought Sudan ran the best race of anyone in the Man O' War?

He got hounded by a David Cohen rabbit through 47.60 and 1:11.80 fractions in an 11 furlong marathon on the Belmont Inner turf and was beaten only three 3 lengths at the end. It's not like the race was run under handicap conditions either - and he was getting 13 pounds in a marathon. Red Rocks and Curlin both got in at 116lbs as neither had a graded stake win on turf this year.

[blackthroatedwind]

Don't hurt yourself patting yourself on the back for thinking Sudan ran the best race. Stevie Wonder called me after the race and said the same thing.

Frankly, after you tried to talk me off Wild Gams the other night I would think you would be a little more humble.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Frankly, after you tried to talk me off Wild Gams the other night I would think you would be a little more humble.

I told you Miss Macy Sue was a complete cinch.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I told you Miss Macy Sue was a complete cinch.

Thankfully I didn't listen.

Chalk eating weasel.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Thankfully I didn't listen.

Chalk eating weasel.

The exacta paid well.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The exacta paid well.

Very.

[DogsUp]

All I know is that I cannot wait until Big Brown and Curlin retire. Then we can have 100 million new threads about 2 new horses in 09.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Stevie Wonder called me after the race and said the same thing.

The only way you would get a call from him is by mistake, and he would probably be calling to order a case of cheesecakes.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Red Rocks and Better Talk Now might both be one-time Breeders Cup Turf winners - but they are completely not that much horse anymore.

Do we really know that about Red Rocks? Isn't it quite possible he's just a far better horse over here?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Do we really know that about Red Rocks? Isn't it quite possible he's just a far better horse over here?

He had the dreamiest of trips in the Man O' War.

Of course he's better over here - he's a Group 3 type in Europe and a Grade 1 or 2 type in America - but that has more to do with the difference in quality of competition than anything else I think.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He had the dreamiest of trips in the Man O' War.

Of course he's better over here - he's a Group 3 type in Europe and a Grade 1 or 2 type in America - but that has more to do with the difference in quality of competition than anything else I think.

I'm not so sure. I think some of the horses that were whooping on him over in Europe would have a tough time with him over here. I guess we'll see in the BC Turf if any of them are dumb enough to not take the shot in the Classic.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I'm not so sure. I think some of the horses that were whooping on him over in Europe would have a tough time with him over here. I guess we'll see in the BC Turf if any of them are dumb enough to not take the shot in the Classic.

At this point in the year, Red Rocks seems to have a lot going against him despite the solid list of past accomplishments.

First, IIRC he hasn't started since the Man O War and was held out of the Sword Dancer due to some sort of ailment, and so has a layoff and possibly physical issues to overcome. Secondly, he changed stables from solid Euro trainer with a history of success with international shippers to a US-based trainer who is not none for conditioning turf marathoners.

Third, and most important, he is owned by Paul Reddam, who rivals the dude from Everest Stable in terms of mismanaging his runners. I think I even read that Red Rocks was pointing for the Monmouth Stakes a couple of weeks ago.

For all we know, he may show up in the BC Classic, too.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Come on now.

Red Rocks and Better Talk Now might both be one-time Breeders Cup Turf winners - but they are completely not that much horse anymore.

I believe Better Talk Now was just off the board in a race won by the mediocre Champs Elyseeys. Red Rocks went off at 98/1 odds in the Hong Kong Vase with Dettori up - and was soundly beaten in the Coronation in his final Euro start.

They aren't exactly Manilla and Theatrical.

Am I the only one who thought Sudan ran the best race of anyone in the Man O' War?

He got hounded by a David Cohen rabbit through 47.60 and 1:11.80 fractions in an 11 furlong marathon on the Belmont Inner turf and was beaten only three 3 lengths at the end. It's not like the race was run under handicap conditions either - and he was getting 13 pounds in a marathon. Red Rocks and Curlin both got in at 116lbs as neither had a graded stake win on turf this year.

I think they are more than "not that much horse anymore" -- both for the better part of a campaign will be competitive at a higher level than those horses at Monmouth. And -- if not -- they performed that day! It's easy to say that so and so didn't show up, ran off the board, etc. -- and that makes the entire case. It's just not so.

G1 races are on the calender and pointed to as part of a campaign -- this Monmouth race was put together, late in the game, and made with a checkbook. People show up, bring their A game to G1 races, and sometimes they don't show up for whatever reason. I am not knocking the horses at Monmouth -- I'd love to own any of them -- but that was not a G1 field and certainly not an accomplished field. What are we talking about here -- has been's vs. never was'?

Regardless, my point was that to say BB won on turf and Curlin didn't is not only a fallacious arguement, it's foolish.

Eric

[SCUDSBROTHER]

RUMOR HAS IT had better action...LOL...Really, I don't know what has happened to BB's action. Compare the action he showed in the Toga 07 Turf race to this. I know you don't need great action to run good, but he once had a better way of moving than this. Look at the stretch run of the Sept. 07 Turf race. You know what that's like? It's almost like seeing a rock skip on top of a lake. He lost that somewhere along the line.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ELA

G1 races are on the calender and pointed to as part of a campaign -- this Monmouth race was put together, late in the game, and made with a checkbook.

No kidding.

However - the conditions of the Man O' War made it a must avoid for a few horses. Dancing Forever and Einstein would have both had to give 8 pounds away to BOTH Red Rocks and Curlin - and thus both passed the race even though they were in sharp form coming off of Grade 1 wins.

The Monmouth race got a respectable field because of the big purse combined with the fact the favorite hadn't run on the lawn since his maiden race.

With male turf horses Graded Stake status isn't as big a deal as it is with dirt horses or female turf horses. They don't exactly make hot commercial stallion prospects.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

No kidding.

However - the conditions of the Man O' War made it a must avoid for a few horses. Dancing Forever and Einstein would have both had to give 8 pounds away to BOTH Red Rocks and Curlin - and thus both passed the race even though they were in sharp form coming off of Grade 1 wins.

The Monmouth race got a respectable field because of the big purse combined with the fact the favorite hadn't run on the lawn since his maiden race.

With male turf horses Graded Stake status isn't as big a deal as it is with dirt horses or female turf horses. They don't exactly make hot commercial stallion prospects.

I understand your point. I don't think the MO'W was a viable option -- I agree -- and I don't think it would be a good comparison. Comparisons in hypotheticals? I think comparisons in reality offer enough to argue about, LOL.

All I am saying -- and this is a circular discussion that is coming down to semantics -- is that while they were respectable horses, they certainly weren't what you find in a G1 calender'ed race. Again, I'd love to own any of those horses. It was a respectable field and they added big money to entice horses, and they still had to hustle. If you disagree, that's fine. As I said, I was really trying to point to the commentary that BB did this, Curlin didn't, Curlin got beat by a filly, BB didn't -- that to me is a non-starter.

I would certainly have a discussion about the quality of the two fields -- and those are great discussions; people bringing intelligent points to the table, etc. -- but for someone to argue about BB along these lines . . .

As far as the status, that's a different topic.

Good thread though.

Eric