The ever INNOVATIVE Kent D

[pgiaco]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Obviously his job is to do a little more than ride the horses around the track although how much more is debatable. That wasnt my point.

My point was that his impact or any jockey's impact is truly overrated in regards to an individual race and completely overrated if one is to say that Kent D is "a symbol of much that is wrong in the game today".

Kent not following instructions, riding out to the wire or providing feedback really has no impact on the game as a whole. If kent's performance is that bad, trainers wont ride him any longer and the show will go on.

Riding out to the wire becomes pretty important when you have him in a triple or super and he wraps up and gets beat.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by pgiaco

Riding out to the wire becomes pretty important when you have him in a triple or super and he wraps up and gets beat.

Im well aware of kent's problems with riding out to the wire and how far that goes back which is way back into the early 90's. Im also aware of ramifications of the super and triple bets. Again, this has nothing to do with my original point.

Kent or any other jockey's impact on the game/sport/industry of horse racing is extremely tiny. He is not a symbol of anything in my opinion. He is a jockey that is extremely skilled and puts in rides that are at times brilliant and at other times baffling.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Im well aware of kent's problems with riding out to the wire and how far that goes back which is way back into the early 90's. Im also aware of ramifications of the super and triple bets. Again, this has nothing to do with my original point.

Kent or any other jockey's impact on the game/sport/industry of horse racing is extremely tiny. He is not a symbol of anything in my opinion. He is a jockey that is extremely skilled and puts in rides that are at times brilliant and at other times baffling.

He seems to have great instincts for riding but has a brain the size of a walnut.

Meaning if he thinks about his ride, he'll do something stupid, hence the baffling rides.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

hes not right as of late..after he made all that money in the tc hes not riding very well...mott about to comit suicide..needs to dump him and use garcia or corny again........

[Scav]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

hes not right as of late..after he made all that money in the tc hes not riding very well...mott about to comit suicide..needs to dump him and use garcia or corny again........

I don't recall Mott ever riding Garcia, but Corny would do Mott some good.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Scav

I don't recall Mott ever riding Garcia, but Corny would do Mott some good.

yes thats what i meant..thanks scav..

[dalakhani]

I agree with you guys...he isnt right and hasnt been for a while.

Let me ask you guys this. Mott has been going through a cold spell (so has zayat for that matter). Do you think that maybe it could be the other way around? Maybe Kent is getting stuck with a bunch of Mott horses that arent in a position to win right now?

Mott does employ other riders and its not like any of them are lighting things up right now when they are on Mott horses.

Im not saying that this is definitely the case im just wondering if you guys think that it may be a possiblity.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

hes not right as of late..after he made all that money in the tc hes not riding very well...mott about to comit suicide..needs to dump him and use garcia or corny again........

Bris PPs for Sunday's card show him at 56/2-10-10 for the current Saratoga meet. Horses are hitting the board, just not getting to the winners' circle.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Im well aware of kent's problems with riding out to the wire and how far that goes back which is way back into the early 90's. Im also aware of ramifications of the super and triple bets. Again, this has nothing to do with my original point.

Kent or any other jockey's impact on the game/sport/industry of horse racing is extremely tiny. He is not a symbol of anything in my opinion. He is a jockey that is extremely skilled and puts in rides that are at times brilliant and at other times baffling.

I read the following in a editoral in the Bloodhorse a couple of years ago. I then checked it out and found that it is indeed true. McCarron has a class at his jockey school in Kentucky. He focus's on the impact of a jockey's ride on not only the outcome of a given race but the money lost by owners and breeders. His example? A race about 2 years ago at Toga when Kent was on Capote's Crown. He didn't ride the horse out in a Grade 1, missed third by a photo. The photo was of him standing up on the horse. He had given up on the horse at the top of the stretch. The horse took him to forth. Your point is what I am concerned about. I think the jock's may excuse away their rides by saying the same thing. Come on, after seeing the Haskell, you mean it never crossed your mind about what could have happened in the Belmont if he didn't give up on the horse? NOT THAT HE WOULD HAVE CAUGHT DA TARA, but didn't you wonder a bit how he may have done?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

I read the following in a editoral in the Bloodhorse a couple of years ago. I then checked it out and found that it is indeed true. McCarron has a class at his jockey school in Kentucky. He focus's on the impact of a jockey's ride on not only the outcome of a given race but the money lost by owners and breeders. His example? A race about 2 years ago at Toga when Kent was on Capote's Crown. He didn't ride the horse out in a Grade 1, missed third by a photo. The photo was of him standing up on the horse. He had given up on the horse at the top of the stretch. The horse took him to forth. Your point is what I am concerned about. I think the jock's may excuse away their rides by saying the same thing. Come on, after seeing the Haskell, you mean it never crossed your mind about what could have happened in the Belmont if he didn't give up on the horse? NOT THAT HE WOULD HAVE CAUGHT DA TARA, but didn't you wonder a bit how he may have done?

This is only Kent's third season at Saratoga so all of this had to have happened since 2006. I dont doubt it happened. My point is that I dont remember the race or the horse and i doubt many others do. It is rather insignificant.

Without being on Big Brown it is impossible for you or I to know what the horse was feeling like. I would imagine after the Eight Belles tragedy that Kent was going to be a little cautious. How do you know that the owner didnt give him "just in case" instructions? It would be extremely ignorant to think that Kent pulled him up because he didnt feel like riding him out.

When I read the critiques on racing forums heaped upon ride after ride I find myself wondering how many critics have EVER been on top of a horse. Sometimes, horses just dont do what you want them to. No matter, if the race doesnt come out like planned, its automatically the jockey's fault. Some rides will be "good" and some "bad" but at the end of the day more times than not the best horse wins.

There are basic laws of business. If your gardner is bad and your yard looks like crap, you find a new gardner. If Kent continuously gives bad rides and is this awful symbol, how does he continue to get good mounts? Are all of these people stupid? Bill Mott stupid?

When I first got to this site all i ever saw was people beating the crap out of Gomez. Now, I dont ever see a word. Did he suddenly learn how to ride? Or is he just getting better horses?

For the record, I am not denying that a ride CAN make a difference in a race. At the same time, the laws of averages kick in.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

When I first got to this site all i ever saw was people beating the crap out of Gomez. Now, I dont ever see a word. Did he suddenly learn how to ride? Or is he just getting better horses?

Most of the Gomez bashing originated from one particular individual, who no longer posts here. I understand your point, but I think that the decline in negative reviews for Gomez in particular has more to do with that individual no longer being here than with anything else.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

This is only Kent's third season at Saratoga so all of this had to have happened since 2006. I dont doubt it happened. My point is that I dont remember the race or the horse and i doubt many others do. It is rather insignificant.

Without being on Big Brown it is impossible for you or I to know what the horse was feeling like. I would imagine after the Eight Belles tragedy that Kent was going to be a little cautious. How do you know that the owner didnt give him "just in case" instructions? It would be extremely ignorant to think that Kent pulled him up because he didnt feel like riding him out.

When I read the critiques on racing forums heaped upon ride after ride I find myself wondering how many critics have EVER been on top of a horse. Sometimes, horses just dont do what you want them to. No matter, if the race doesnt come out like planned, its automatically the jockey's fault. Some rides will be "good" and some "bad" but at the end of the day more times than not the best horse wins.

There are basic laws of business. If your gardner is bad and your yard looks like crap, you find a new gardner. If Kent continuously gives bad rides and is this awful symbol, how does he continue to get good mounts? Are all of these people stupid? Bill Mott stupid?

When I first got to this site all i ever saw was people beating the crap out of Gomez. Now, I dont ever see a word. Did he suddenly learn how to ride? Or is he just getting better horses?

For the record, I am not denying that a ride CAN make a difference in a race. At the same time, the laws of averages kick in.

A healthy debate really requires more of a response than "it is rather insignificant". It wasn't to the dam of Capote's Crown who was being sold and a Grade 1 stakes placing would have sent the cost up another 3 million dollars. Nor was it to the fans, handicappers who included him in their tri's.

The law of averages assumes a given set of consistent variables. With Kent you never know what kind of ride you are going to get. His mood/disagreeable nature/insecurities all factor in. With other jocks you don't have so many of these kinds of factors that filter into their rides.

Trainers ride Jock's for all sorts of reasons. Dutrow has made it clear he wouldn't have him on his horses except the owners have told him that they want him. That frequently happens. As for what happened at Belmont no one knows for sure. I think the combination of a horse that wasn't as fit as he needed to be along with a horrible ride were the main factors. What was the most prominent factor is anyone's guess. I mean it was Da Tara out there. We aren't talking about Affirmed and Alydar here.

But I have seen it so often in the last three years. When Kent is rounding the turn with a horse he is giving up on, he doesn't ride him and pulls him up very quickly at or just past the finish which is always very bad for the horse. And I challenge you to watch him after the finish line and see how far he gallops his horses out. I was at Churchill at the beginning of July and the fans were all over him there for doing that. There are many trainers who won't ride him now. I assume there will be more to come. He hasn't put up his house on Long Island for no reason. He's fixing to move on AGAIN.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

It wasn't to the dam of Capote's Crown who was being sold and a Grade 1 stakes placing would have sent the cost up another 3 million dollars.

Sorry to digress, but I'm confused as to how Capote's Crown getting third in a Grade 1 would have elevated her dam's price by three million dollars. What am I missing?

[ELA]

When a jock doesn't fully ride out a horse -- in the example of a filly/mare -- in a graded stake, costing the horse 3rd and winding up 4th, yes, we all know the costs. The jock, absent of some immediate concern or problem, is 100% to blame.

Have I seen it happen? Yes. Have I seen it happen in overnight races? Yes.

Question -- if a jock is called out by the stewards for not fully riding out to the wire, does the jock always get days, or is just a fine (with no days) a possibile penalty?

Eric

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Sorry to digress, but I'm confused as to how Capote's Crown getting third in a Grade 1 would have elevated her dam's price by three million dollars. What am I missing?

Good Question. It had to do with breeding, getting the grade one placing, that negoiation that was going on during that meet. Multiple factors actually. But if you see Chris McCarron, ask him he taught the course to help emphasize the importance of a jockey's ride as extending further than just a particular race. By the way, caught the Siro's gig when I was in Saratoga for the week a couple of weeks ago. Good job. Interesting show. I may catch it again on Saturday. Trying to find a horse to beat Curlin.