Which horses were truly great?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I would be hard pressed not to include Cigar, Skip Away, Alysheba, Ferdinand, Manila, Lure, Miesque, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, maybe All Along

To me having 22 that fit the definition of elite of the elite is already too many, you have to draw the line somewhere. All those horses could certainly be called great without an argument but were they truly elites of the elite on the level that the other horses were?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

To me having 22 that fit the definition of elite of the elite is already too many, you have to draw the line somewhere. All those horses could certainly be called great without an argument but were they truly elites of the elite on the level that the other horses were?

Miesque, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, Cigar, were all elites of the elite IMO..

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Miesque, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, Cigar, were all elites of the elite IMO..

I think Skip Away was faster than Cigar and Skip Away lost too many races for me to consider him in that category. Ruffian was likely on her way but the career was just a little short for me to consider her. I had a tough time even adding Colin with 15 races. John Henry is one I waffled on and certainly has a strong argument to be included. I'm sticking to North American based horses so wouldn't count Miesque.

[DogsUp]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I think Skip Away was faster than Cigar and Skip Away lost too many races for me to consider him in that category. Ruffian was likely on her way but the career was just a little short for me to consider her. I had a tough time even adding Colin with 15 races. John Henry is one I waffled on and certainly has a strong argument to be included. I'm sticking to North American based horses so wouldn't count Miesque.

Do you think you should change your definition based on the style of racing today? If your definition holds then we will never see another elite of the elite because no one races more than 15 times anymore. And your opinion as to why Holy Bull is not on this list?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by DogsUp

Do you think you should change your definition based on the style of racing today? If your definition holds then we will never see another elite of the elite because no one races more than 15 times anymore. And your opinion as to why Holy Bull is not on this list?

If Curlin were brilliant enough he could have certainly had the chance to make the list with his accomplishments. A champion 2yo that developed into a champion 3yo and was brilliant in both seasons could also make the list. There could always be another great gelding. So there is definitely the possibility of seeing another great. Just cause of the lure of the breeding shed I don't think we should drop our expectations.

[DogsUp]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

If Curlin were brilliant enough he could have certainly had the chance to make the list with his accomplishments. A champion 2yo that developed into a champion 3yo and was brilliant in both seasons could also make the list. There could always be another great gelding. So there is definitely the possibility of seeing another great. Just cause of the lure of the breeding shed I don't think we should drop our expectations.

Expectations should be changed based on the times. Look at MLB. They change the expectations of pitchers elected to the Hall of Fame. We do not see too many complete games these days. That used to be a criteria and now it isnt. There is always room for movement when it comes to expectations. But it is your list so it is your rules.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by DogsUp

Expectations should be changed based on the times. Look at MLB. They change the expectations of pitchers elected to the Hall of Fame. We do not see too many complete games these days. That used to be a criteria and now it isnt. There is always room for movement when it comes to expectations. But it is your list so it is your rules.

Who has been elected with lowered expectations?

[Antitrust32]

Question (could be a dumb one)...

Is it tougher to get an "All Time Great" today compared to the days of Colin and whatnot.. because the # of foals there are these days are way more than the # back in the good ol' days??

[SniperSB23]

These are all nice horses being mentioned that no one is going to have a problem with calling great. I just don't think any of them fit in that top tier with the horses I've mentioned. You could pretty much just list anyone that is in the Hall of Fame if you want to include every horse that can pass for great but what fun is that.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by DogsUp

Do you think you should change your definition based on the style of racing today? If your definition holds then we will never see another elite of the elite because no one races more than 15 times anymore. And your opinion as to why Holy Bull is not on this list?

Holy Bull should be included too, IMO

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I think Skip Away was faster than Cigar and Skip Away lost too many races for me to consider him in that category. Ruffian was likely on her way but the career was just a little short for me to consider her. I had a tough time even adding Colin with 15 races. John Henry is one I waffled on and certainly has a strong argument to be included. I'm sticking to North American based horses so wouldn't count Miesque.

I dont know how you could include Colin and not Cigar...

I think Unbridled's Song would have been an alltime great had he not been injured his whole career and had a better owner... Zito still calls him the best he's ever trained.. and he only trained him for one race his 4yo year! I think he beat Appealing Skier and ran 7 furlongs in 1:21.. off of a looooong layoff!

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I dont know how you could include Colin and not Cigar...

Colin was a tough call but 15 for 15 lifetime with an American record is tough to exclude.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I think Skip Away was faster than Cigar and Skip Away lost too many races for me to consider him in that category. Ruffian was likely on her way but the career was just a little short for me to consider her. I had a tough time even adding Colin with 15 races. John Henry is one I waffled on and certainly has a strong argument to be included. I'm sticking to North American based horses so wouldn't count Miesque.

Kelso and Forgeo lost a lot of races too

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Kelso and Forgeo lost a lot of races too

They won 60% and 62% respectively. Skip Away didn't even win half of his races.

[horseofcourse]

Bold Ruler still needs to be on there on this forum too!

[smuthg]

Seabiscuit? Sunday Silence?

[Slewbopper]

Caspar Milquetoast. He was great to me. first winning bet I made.... Agadirt back around '73

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

They won 60% and 62% respectively. Skip Away didn't even win half of his races.

Skip Away was the best horse of the 90's. Of course he was great. He faced real brilliant competiton, ran many huge performances, and was around from start to finish.

Ghostzapper was the best horse of this decade so far - because he was so lightly raced it might not be as easy to call him great but he was. I don't think you could call a horse great as lightly raced as he was had he run in a different era.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Skip Away was the best horse of the 90's. Of course he was great. He faced real brilliant competiton, ran many huge performances, and was around from start to finish.

Ghostzapper was the best horse of this decade so far - because he was so lightly raced it might not be as easy to call him great but he was. I don't think you could call a horse great as lightly raced as he was had he run in a different era.

ghostzapper was a brilliant horse. incredibly fast-i appreciate his talent far more now than i did when he ran, which sadly was far too infrequent for my taste.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Skip Away was the best horse of the 90's. Of course he was great. He faced real brilliant competiton, ran many huge performances, and was around from start to finish.

I don't think Skip Away measures up to three Hall of Fame horses from that decade: Cigar, Holy Bull or A.P Indy. For that matter, from the year he was selected HOY, I'm not sure that he was better than Formal Gold, who smoked him in the Woodward.