Dutrow running one off 2 days rest

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by saratoga guy

I think you're overstating the case.

Dutrow claimed Golden Man in Jan 2005 for $60K. The previous September the horse was running for $12.5K.

Subsequent to the claim the horse won a NW1 and then was an OK -- albeit distant (12 lengths) -- third in the Peter Pan.

Then he ran his back-to-back races.

So it's kind of hard to make the argument that he was a real up-and-comer in the 3YO ranks that summer.

Actually, he caught my attention that year because we owned a Suave Prospect that we had privately purchased from Farnsworth Farms. They had a ton of horses, so the tag he ran for was kind of irrelevant. They ran Imperialism for $25K as a 2YO.

In Golden Man's first race off the claim, he won a NW1X allowance score at Gulfstream, in very fast time. He was super impressive in that race, defeating subsequent Lexington Stakes winner Coin Silver. Then his owners at the time (Sandy Goldfarb and Michael Dubb) supplemented Golden Man to the Preakness for $100,000, but he was excluded from the race when it oversubscribed (Giacomo didn't scare anyone off). He ran third in the Peter Pan, where he was only 5-1 in the wagering. The rest, as they say, is history ...

[saratoga guy]

I guess it's glass-half-full vs glass-half-empty -- but I still think it's hard to make a case for Golden Man as a real up-and-comer...

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

so the tag he ran for was kind of irrelevant.

I'd go along with that if they snuck him in for a tag in the career debut, or tried to sneak him in for a tag after a dud. But Golden Man bombed in his debut for $50K. Dropped to $32K and bombed again. Was unimpressive next time at $25K. And finally broke through the maiden ranks in his second try at the $12.5K level. After that impressive win they still didn't think enough of him to go any further than $25K NW2L.

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

In Golden Man's first race off the claim, he won a NW1X allowance score at Gulfstream, in very fast time. He was super impressive in that race, defeating subsequent Lexington Stakes winner Coin Silver.

I'm not sure whether Coin Silver panned out to be a real barometer of talent.

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Then his owners at the time (Sandy Goldfarb and Michael Dubb) supplemented Golden Man to the Preakness for $100,000, but he was excluded from the race when it oversubscribed (Giacomo didn't scare anyone off). He ran third in the Peter Pan, where he was only 5-1 in the wagering.

That he was supplemented to the Preakness and went off at 5-1 in the Peter Pan are both interesting -- but the results of the races he ran in are more interesting. He finished third in the Peter Pan and the Long Branch -- both before the back-to-back efforts [the Long Branch was the first of those].

Hardly super exciting.

And the horse that won that year's Peter Pan? Oratory -- never ran again after suffering a broken bone in a subsequent workout. Only five career starts and none spaced closer than 22 days. I'd call him a real up-and-comer -- but what do we blame his subsequent non-career on?

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by saratoga guy

That he was supplemented to the Preakness and went off at 5-1 in the Peter Pan are both interesting -- but the results of the races he ran in are more interesting. He finished third in the Peter Pan and the Long Branch -- both before the back-to-back efforts [the Long Branch was the first of those].

Hardly super exciting.

And the horse that won that year's Peter Pan? Oratory -- never ran again after suffering a broken bone in a subsequent workout. Only five career starts and none spaced closer than 22 days. I'd call him a real up-and-comer -- but what do we blame his subsequent non-career on?

Was he a superstar, no. However, Coin Silver did win a Grade II, and Golden Man also beat Frankel's subqesuent SW High Limit in one of the back-to-back stakes. By the fall of the same year in which he supplemented to the Preakness, Dutrow had him back in for $40,000 claimers. Dutrow runs a lot of horses back on short rest, and it invariably seems to take a lot out of them.

[ELA]

Good horse, bad horse -- no offense, but not really the issue. Dutrow does tend to run horses back quick. A lot? Some? Often? All relative terms. He does it more often than most other trainers. I hear some trainers give him credit for trying and note that after he wheels him back he gives them a more normal time off routine.

I've others say this is horrible and comments as foolish as "need the money" or something along those lines. Doesn't matter!

This one did not go well. If every other one had, this one was one too many. I think the immediate reaction in the hysterical world we see today is going to be for various people to back peddle and cover their butts.

Eric

[freddymo]

For me it's simple, You shouldn't run a TB twice in 48 hours. Standardbreds are a completely different subject. I do think sound horses are raced too infrequently unfortunately there aren't too many sound TB's..

I just had this disussion with DrugS we claimed one a few weeks ago and he called me to tell me he was in great shape and as sound as could be. I told him to give the horse 30 days so we could race him at the same price tag some stupid rule about having to move them up in Pa if you re race them within 30 days of your claim.. I thought it was a stupid idea to risk racing him sound at a level he might not be able to win, when in 12 more days he would could easily win at the same claiming level. Basically the rules keep me and DrugS from re entering him not his condition. If he is sound after the race and we still have him I have no issue wheeling back in 8 to 14 days. He is a race horse, if they are sound, let'em race.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by freddymo

For me it's simple, You shouldn't run a TB twice in 48 hours. Standardbreds are a completely different subject. I do think sound horses are raced too infrequently unfortunately there aren't too many sound TB's..

I just had this disussion with DrugS we claimed one a few weeks ago and he called me to tell me he was in great shape and as sound as could be. I told him to give the horse 30 days so we could race him at the same price tag some stupid rule about having to move them up in Pa if you re race them within 30 days of your claim.. I thought it was a stupid idea to risk racing him sound at a level he might not be able to win, when in 12 more days he would could easily win at the same claiming level. Basically the rules keep me and DrugS from re entering him not his condition. If he is sound after the race and we still have him I have no issue wheeling back in 8 to 14 days. He is a race horse, if they are sound, let'em race.

Best of luck.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Best of luck.

Luck who needs luck I have DrugS... If we lose I will make him pay the bills.. i only win he is in for the losses

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by ELA

Dutrow does tend to run horses back quick. A lot? Some? Often? All relative terms. He does it more often than most other trainers.

As indicated in another post in this thread, this was the 50th starter that Dutrow had back on 1-7 days rest, according to stats in yesterday's DRF (I'm not sure of the sample time period, but in thinking 2007-08). Let's not forget that this was the guy who through the whole Triple Crown season kept telling the media that the doesn't like to run horses back on short rest.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

As indicated in another post in this thread, this was the 50th starter that Dutrow had back on 1-7 days rest, according to stats in yesterday's DRF (I'm not sure of the sample time period, but in thinking 2007-08). Let's not forget that this was the guy who through the whole Triple Crown season kept telling the media that the doesn't like to run horses back on short rest.

To be fair how many starters has Dutrow had?

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by freddymo

To be fair how many starters has Dutrow had?

He's had about 350 so far this year. Even if we assume that he had 700 last year, it seems to me that 5% of his starters on such short rest is a pretty high number. In NY, the only other trainers that I can think of running a significant number of horses back on such short rest are Contessa and Leo O'Brien.