Larry Jones gets first drug positive ever

[prudery]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I don't really care what his supposed record is. He gets form reversals on horses at all class levels that make him look shady to me. Because the reversals come with horses he's had all along - it doesn't get the same reaction that it would if the reversals came 1st off a claim or with a 1st time trainer switch.

An overage is overage. It's like when you are driving on the highway and you try to drive as fast as you can without driving fast enough to get picked up.

In some places the cops tend to let you can get away with more than others. In some situations you can have a guy pass you going 100 mph and you speed up 10 mph because you know if they get anyone - it will be the other guy first.

However, you're playing with fire...and sooner or late you'll get caught. It may take many years - but it will happen.

To me - the overage isn't a big deal - my opinion has already been formed by seeing enough of the guys horses.

The big deal here (at least to me anyway) is you have an owner who wants to make this out to be a case of sabotage!

Agreed--an overage is just that ... But as far as the form flip flops, can you consider that in 25 years with these dramatic improvements he still comes clean ??? Or are you suggesting he is that good ...

The guy used Clenbuterol--basically a brochodilator if I am not mistaken ...Legal stuff in legal proportions ... Nothing has been released about how much over the overrages are ... If they were minor, could that said horse suddenly inhale the competition ???

Admittedly, I have not followed the Jones profile like you have ... But I would prefer to wait out the subsequent testing although you make a case, as do those who see his record compared to other more busted trainers, and make a case for a misshap or even a frame job ...

I do agree that the owner was a bit florid in his denial, but the timing ...

[Bobby Fischer]

wheres the fatman when you actually need a cycling analogy?

I think more than half of competitive cyclists claim to suffer from exercise related asthma, so that they can take a certain amount of bronchodilator.

they probably know all the good masking agents too.

[Thunder Gulch]

The worst part of this is now the major media outlets have free reign to splash news of a failed drug test for a horse by Eight Belles trainer.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

The worst part of this is now the major media outlets have free reign to splash news of a failed drug test for a horse by Eight Belles trainer.

well, why not? it all happened. if racing doesn't want this kind of black eye, they should have taken steps long ago to keep it from happening--rather than smacking wrists and writing inconsequential fines.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

well, why not? it all happened. if racing doesn't want this kind of black eye, they should have taken steps long ago to keep it from happening--rather than smacking wrists and writing inconsequential fines.

What kind of fine or penalty exactly do you want? You guys seem to want blood but if this is the guys first violation in 25 years what exactly should happen to him? We dont know for sure but the medication in question is a legal drug that was probably found in a trace level above the allowable level. Calling him a cheater is a bit harsh especially considering his record. I admit I am a little skeptical about Jones and his seemingly meteroic rise from Ellis Park and his often strange form reversals. But this is hardly the smoking gun. I would like to know what "racing", outside of having a better system of testing and being a bit more open about what is happening with that testing, can do to avoid having positive tests?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What kind of fine or penalty exactly do you want? You guys seem to want blood but if this is the guys first violation in 25 years what exactly should happen to him? We dont know for sure but the medication in question is a legal drug that was probably found in a trace level above the allowable level. Calling him a cheater is a bit harsh especially considering his record. I admit I am a little skeptical about Jones and his seemingly meteroic rise from Ellis Park and his often strange form reversals. But this is hardly the smoking gun. I would like to know what "racing", outside of having a better system of testing and being a bit more open about what is happening with that testing, can do to avoid having positive tests?

"I admit I am a little skeptical about Jones and his seemingly meteroic rise from Ellis Park and his often strange form reversals."

You are only a little skeptical? LOL. I know you are being politically correct. I am more than a little skeptical. As you said, having a slight overage with chlenbuterol is not that big of a deal. I'd like to know what Jones is using in addition to chlenbuterol. I know it ain't oats and water.

It's funny how these dead-average trainers like Art Sherman win at a 10-12% clip for 20 years and then all of a sudden start winning at 30%.

[ELA]

I don't know Larry Jones at all -- but I think people here are skating on the very same thin ice as the uneducated media. First, if this was a clentbuterol positive, let's wait for the facts. Trace level, drastic, whatever. Second, this is a perfectly legal drug -- PERIOD. Whether you like it or not -- LEGAL. Used everyday all over the backstretch. He used it to close maybe, and he'll pay the price. For those who know jump up and say "See, I told you so, here's the proof" -- no, you didn't tell anything other than show you are being moronic.

Third, the only people who would tie everything that ever appeared skeptical or cynical from Jones to this minor infraction, are showing their complete lack of knowledge about this game. I know -- everybody "just knows" -- yeah, been there, done that.

As far as the form reversals, drastic change in #'s, etc. -- this has nothing to do with a clenbuterol positive. Please. You want to say that where there is smoke there is fire -- great go ahead. There are plenty of trainers who have gradual increases in results, and others who have drastic ones. There are plenty of answers, some valid, some not. Drugs? Sure, in some cases -- those who know can look at the stats and certain trainers who went from low teens to high 20's. OK. But others -- there are valid, perfectly acceptable reasons . . . but not to those who need to lay blame, find guilt, and have to find the smoking gun. Did anyone think Jones wasn't using clenbuterol? What % of trainers aren't?

God forbid a popular trainer here, well liked, etc. had a clenbuterol positive. I am sure the story would be much different.

Eric

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What kind of fine or penalty exactly do you want? You guys seem to want blood but if this is the guys first violation in 25 years what exactly should happen to him? We dont know for sure but the medication in question is a legal drug that was probably found in a trace level above the allowable level. Calling him a cheater is a bit harsh especially considering his record. I admit I am a little skeptical about Jones and his seemingly meteroic rise from Ellis Park and his often strange form reversals. But this is hardly the smoking gun. I would like to know what "racing", outside of having a better system of testing and being a bit more open about what is happening with that testing, can do to avoid having positive tests?

i wasn't talking about jones specifically. it seems that every time something happens like this, there are folks who would rather it all go away, rather than have bad press. there are cheaters in this sport, some are very high profile, with top horses on the track. but now larry jones is in the mix, and some don't want to face the fact that his horse tested over. how it happened, i don't know. but this sport allows folks like steve asmussen and rick dutrow, with countless black marks on their record, continue to do business as usual.

so, my point in the post you replied to was that it's not the media's fault if they have a story. it's this sports fault for not taking the whole drug issue more seriously-both with what should and shouldn't be allowed, as well as WHO should still be allowed.

i'm waiting, as i'm sure you are, for exactly what kind of overage they are talking about. we all know some horses are given legal meds that must have cleared by race day, and don't. now, if this is a microscopic amount, considering jones' complete lack of past positives, i'd say he should be treated lightly since it's a first offense--but only if BOTH parts of that are true.

regarding what 'racing' can do, for starters they can show the worst repeat offenders the door. maybe the rate of positives would drop with their departure.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i wasn't talking about jones specifically. it seems that every time something happens like this, there are folks who would rather it all go away, rather than have bad press. there are cheaters in this sport, some are very high profile, with top horses on the track. but now larry jones is in the mix, and some don't want to face the fact that his horse tested over. how it happened, i don't know. but this sport allows folks like steve asmussen and rick dutrow, with countless black marks on their record, continue to do business as usual.

so, my point in the post you replied to was that it's not the media's fault if they have a story. it's this sports fault for not taking the whole drug issue more seriously-both with what should and shouldn't be allowed, as well as WHO should still be allowed.

i'm waiting, as i'm sure you are, for exactly what kind of overage they are talking about. we all know some horses are given legal meds that must have cleared by race day, and don't. now, if this is a microscopic amount, considering jones' complete lack of past positives, i'd say he should be treated lightly since it's a first offense--but only if BOTH parts of that are true.

Excellent point. Those who want it to "go away" are being very short sighted and are very much being part of the problem. There are cheaters in this sport and they must be dealt with. On one hand you have the attitude of not being able to catch Al Capone for murder and everything else, so you get him for tax evasion. OK, I see the need. OTOH, I just read in the paper that a guy I went to school with plea bargained for 13 months and a $7500 fine -- for bribing a public official with a $4300 payment. No mention or closure on the charges where he bribed another public official $250,000, or the $100,000, or the free addition on a home, and so on.

Those who want to lablel Jones as public enemy # 1, lifelong cheater, I told you so, etc. -- very transparent. Those who don't want to face the reality that he got a clenbuterol positive -- guess what? Also, very transparent. However, your point is excellent in that it shows both origins of both problems. Well, different origin, same problem.

Eric

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i wasn't talking about jones specifically. it seems that every time something happens like this, there are folks who would rather it all go away, rather than have bad press. there are cheaters in this sport, some are very high profile, with top horses on the track. but now larry jones is in the mix, and some don't want to face the fact that his horse tested over. how it happened, i don't know. but this sport allows folks like steve asmussen and rick dutrow, with countless black marks on their record, continue to do business as usual.

so, my point in the post you replied to was that it's not the media's fault if they have a story. it's this sports fault for not taking the whole drug issue more seriously-both with what should and shouldn't be allowed, as well as WHO should still be allowed.

i'm waiting, as i'm sure you are, for exactly what kind of overage they are talking about. we all know some horses are given legal meds that must have cleared by race day, and don't. now, if this is a microscopic amount, considering jones' complete lack of past positives, i'd say he should be treated lightly since it's a first offense--but only if BOTH parts of that are true.

regarding what 'racing' can do, for starters they can show the worst repeat offenders the door. maybe the rate of positives would drop with their departure.

What's not surprising is that the guys who are the big cheaters are usually the same guys who are always getting the overages. The reason is obvious. These guys are always pushing the envelope. They want to take every edge they can get whether it's with legal or illegal drugs.

What some of these guys will do is keep slightly increasing the dose of a legal drug or a milkshake until they get hit with an overage. That way they pretty much know what they can give without getting a positive. The problem is that different horses metabolize at different rates, so if they try to cut it too close they may come back with a positive. That is probably how Doug O'Neil got that positive earlier this year.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i wasn't talking about jones specifically. it seems that every time something happens like this, there are folks who would rather it all go away, rather than have bad press. there are cheaters in this sport, some are very high profile, with top horses on the track. but now larry jones is in the mix, and some don't want to face the fact that his horse tested over. how it happened, i don't know. but this sport allows folks like steve asmussen and rick dutrow, with countless black marks on their record, continue to do business as usual.

so, my point in the post you replied to was that it's not the media's fault if they have a story. it's this sports fault for not taking the whole drug issue more seriously-both with what should and shouldn't be allowed, as well as WHO should still be allowed.

I think every sport, business, indusrty, etc would rather the story just go away than have bad press, no? I mean is the NFL thrilled they have Spygate? Was baseball happy to have to issue the Mitchell report? I agree that racing on the whole does a poor job of spinning the negative, usually no one says anything, but where is the outrage at the NFL when Shaun Merriman gets a 4 game suspension for steroids? Did he not "cheat" the bettors who bet the the opposing teams? I'm not condoning anything but saying that there is a strong possibility that this positive was not intentional (Squires is seeing ghosts and maybe he will begin to better understand the issue that he loves to speak so freely about) and as such the penalty will fit the crime. I'm sure there will be people who think it wasnt enough regardless of what they give him outside of a beheading.

The "sport" cant necessarily just get rid of guys like the ones you named. It simply isnt that easy to do. Everybody wants to point fingers at this industry in regards to "throwing people out" yet they forget that baseball never "threw out" Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Steve Howe, or Doc Gooden. Basketball didn't "throw out" Latrell Spreewell or Ron Artest. They all come back. There are these dudes called lawyers and these things called rights and it simply isnt easy to get rid of people because the courts seemingly always give in.

We all know that the media is shameless and will take advantage of any negative story it can. But that doesnt make them much different than Congress who will surely slip this little mishap into the next hearing.