House Subcommittee Hearings

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Certainly there are obstacles. But to me, looking into the options and considerations is more beneficial than just putting up our heels and not bothering, or blaming in on the "states rights" issues.

If it costs us $1 billion to save a multi-billion dollar industry, that's better than not spending the $1 billion and having no industry at all.

Are you even remotely aware of the work that is being done by a host of people throughout the industry on EVERY SINGLE TOPIC that was brought up today? Work that is being diminished and insulted by douchebags and buffoons like Randy Moss who don't know what they're talking about but are accepted as 'authoritative' because of some perceived knowledge gleened from 17 minutes of airtime on ESPN once a month?

Are you kidding me? This was a mockery today. No one who has been working tirelessly to change things in the game, and that have been making progress, were representated.. Their efforts were obfuscated by lies, misrepresentations and innuendo. I'm surprised that someone that makes their living in the game would perpetuate the crap that we just listened to for 4 hours... It's irresponsible to be unaware of what is actually being attempted and accomplished.

Sorry to be harsh about it but accepting the bullsh+t from the likes of Jess Jackson is outrageous.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Are you even remotely aware of the work that is being done by a host of people throughout the industry on EVERY SINGLE TOPIC that was brought up today? Work that is being diminished and insulted by douchebags and buffoons like Randy Moss who don't know what they're talking about but are accepted as 'authoritative' because of some perceived knowledge gleened from 17 minutes of airtime on ESPN once a month?

Are you kidding me? This was a mockery today. No one who has been working tirelessly to change things in the game, and that have been making progress, were representated.. Their efforts were obfuscated by lies, misrepresentations and innuendo. I'm surprised that someone that makes their living in the game would perpetuate the crap that we just listened to for 4 hours... It's irresponsible to be unaware of what is actually being attempted and accomplished.

Sorry to be harsh about it but accepting the bullsh+t from the likes of Jess Jackson is outrageous.

I'm completely aware of the measurements being taken, of the new committees and groups formed. My golf partner is one a few of those committees. I know.

And no, I don't think today's hearings were the end-all, be-all, nor the answer. But its funny how someone outside our industry finally calls us out, and suddenly, we have this giant defensive stance. It's like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

I'm completely aware of the measurements being taken, of the new committees and groups formed. My golf partner is one a few of those committees. I know.

And no, I don't think today's hearings were the end-all, be-all, nor the answer. But its funny how someone outside our industry finally calls us out, and suddenly, we have this giant defensive stance. It's like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.

Actually it's not. It's vocal response to say what IS BEING DONE... I'm on the air 15 hours a week doing it. My head is hardly in the sand.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Actually it's not. It's vocal response to say what IS BEING DONE... I'm on the air 15 hours a week doing it. My head is hardly in the sand.

I think thats where the faith of general population is softening. We read stories about committees and approaches and ideas and thoughts, yet it never seems to really materialize. You and I can say to our friends, "There is a new committee looking into performance enhancing drugs which should help improve the status quo" all we want, but at the end of the day, this committee really has no jurisdiction. So they can only recommend, and before you know, we have a pile of recommendations, but no way to enforce. So what needs to happen for the sport to start enforcing? That's where I am coming from.

I wasn't calling you on ostrich... for the record!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

I think thats where the faith of general population is softening. We read stories about committees and approaches and ideas and thoughts, yet it never seems to really materialize. You and I can say to our friends, "There is a new committee looking into performance enhancing drugs which should help improve the status quo" all we want, but at the end of the day, this committee really has no jurisdiction. So they can only recommend, and before you know, we have a pile of recommendations, but no way to enforce. So what needs to happen for the sport to start enforcing? That's where I am coming from.

I wasn't calling you on ostrich... for the record!

Let me give you an analogy to what may possibly occur.

A department store is doing steady business. They have the ups and downs like other businesses but they are established and have a loyal customer base. But they have this little shoplifting problem that is biting off 5% of its profits. A local tv station does a story on the shoplifting issue and people all of a sudden have a lack of confidence in the stores security and think they may be in danger. Even though no one was threatened and shoplifters rarely are violent offenders, the store decides it needs to beef up its security forces and use all the modern devices even metal detectors to keep out guns, even though guns have been an issue. They say it is to restore the publics confidence in us. so they put in all these costly devices and cameras. Then the bill come for the equipment. Holy crap they store says. This is expensive. We have to raise our prices to pay for all this stuff, even after finding some of it is overkill. So they raise their prices 20% to pay for the equipment. The end results are decidedly poor. The good news is that shoplifting is way down from the previous levels and the customers feel safer. The bad news is that sales are off 40% because there are a whole lot fewer customers because they have priced themselves out of the market.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

A department store is doing steady business. They have the ups and downs like other businesses but they are established and have a loyal customer base.

Would you call an industry who needs slots to save it a "steady business?"

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Would you call an industry who needs slots to save it a "steady business?"

Check handle trends the last 10 years. They look pretty steady to me.

Slots are competition that has huge tax advantages that are relatively recent additions to the gambling landscape. Racing was doing fine even as it's taxes were increased because of the lack of competition. When casino's started to spread throughout the country racing was at a big disadvantage because it was already heavily taxed and regulated. The only gambling game in town now had a competitor that had huge built in advantages and racing's hands were tied. Racing's problem is that were slow to adopt slots and casinos to add to their gaming menu. The problem wasnt racing, it was the addition to the market of a competitor with a huge advantage. It is the same reason why Wal Marts eat up other businesses. It isnt necessarily the fault of the other businesses but unless they morph into something other than the same old business model they will disappear. I tend to think of it more in tose terms. You know Mc Donalds sells more than hamburgers now

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

I'm completely aware of the measurements being taken, of the new committees and groups formed. My golf partner is one a few of those committees. I know.

And no, I don't think today's hearings were the end-all, be-all, nor the answer. But its funny how someone outside our industry finally calls us out, and suddenly, we have this giant defensive stance. It's like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.

To the contrary I believe that the industry has not taken a defensive enough stance. All I saw today were people casting stones at the industry. And I hate to tell you that the Feds will take today as the end all, be all as far as their involvement. That is why the list of 'guests' was so slanted. If you knew nothing about horseracing before this hearing you will have a really dim and one sided view afterwards. Let us not forget that many if not most of our experts arent that knwledgeable about the entire issue outside of their own fifedom's so to expect decided non-experts like congress decide our fate is not an appealing thought. Think NYCOTB on a grand scale.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

To the contrary I believe that the industry has not taken a defensive enough stance. All I saw today were people casting stones at the industry. And I hate to tell you that the Feds will take today as the end all, be all as far as their involvement. That is why the list of 'guests' was so slanted. If you knew nothing about horseracing before this hearing you will have a really dim and one sided view afterwards. Let us not forget that many if not most of our experts arent that knwledgeable about the entire issue outside of their own fifedom's so to expect decided non-experts like congress decide our fate is not an appealing thought. Think NYCOTB on a grand scale.

What are exactly ARE the compelling counter-arguments to today's "one-sided" arguments?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by justindew

What are exactly ARE the compelling counter-arguments to today's "one-sided" arguments?

That racing is hardly doing nothing in many cases. That some of the issues brought up like the ones involving the sales have already been dealt with through regulatory changes and state laws. That there needs to be a whole lot more clarification than to simply say "drugs". That there are customers that wont appreciate paying more for the product despite the pleas of Moss, Van Berg, and Jackson. That this is a far more complex issue because many of the "drugs" that are being talked about are useful medications that would not be an issue in a human sport yet are in ours. That this whole endeavor would cost a tremendous amount of money that the industry simply doesnt have? That there is no reason for anyone to believe that the Federal government will be any more effective in its oversight than the states currently are? That the great majority of people in the business are against horse slaughter yet see the issues that arise because of the ban of it.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That racing is hardly doing nothing in many cases. That some of the issues brought up like the ones involving the sales have already been dealt with through regulatory changes and state laws. That there needs to be a whole lot more clarification than to simply say "drugs". That there are customers that wont appreciate paying more for the product despite the pleas of Moss, Van Berg, and Jackson. That this is a far more complex issue because many of the "drugs" that are being talked about are useful medications that would not be an issue in a human sport yet are in ours. That this whole endeavor would cost a tremendous amount of money that the industry simply doesnt have? That there is no reason for anyone to believe that the Federal government will be any more effective in its oversight than the states currently are? That the great majority of people in the business are against horse slaughter yet see the issues that arise because of the ban of it.

I don't think any of the panelists demanded federal intervention. It sounded like all hoped the industry could ultimately do all of this itself.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That racing is hardly doing nothing in many cases. That some of the issues brought up like the ones involving the sales have already been dealt with through regulatory changes and state laws.

I don't know that I'd use the Sales Integrity Task Force as an example of the industry doing a good job of cleaning up its own house. Have there been some improvements, yes. However, the industry continues to tolerate a whole lot of practices that would be, at best, questionable in almost any other line of business.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I don't know that I'd use the Sales Integrity Task Force as an example of the industry doing a good job of cleaning up its own house. Have there been some improvements, yes. However, the industry continues to tolerate a whole lot of practices that would be, at best, questionable in almost any other line of business.

There have been laws passed in KY and Fl that deal with many of these issues.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Are you even remotely aware of the work that is being done by a host of people throughout the industry on EVERY SINGLE TOPIC that was brought up today?

It's irresponsible to be unaware of what is actually being attempted and accomplished.

Maybe years of being in the industry and seeing firsthand how f'ing stupid the decision makers are, by and large, has dampened the panel members' faith in the "host of people" you mention.

The NTRA has been around for 10 years with the goal of essentially making the sport more popular. What have they come up with? Go Baby Go!, and Win and You're In.

Brilliant.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by justindew

Maybe years of being in the industry and seeing firsthand how f'ing stupid the decision makers are, by and large, has dampened the panel members' faith in the "host of people" you mention.

The NTRA has been around for 10 years with the goal of essentially making the sport more popular. What have they come up with? Go Baby Go!, and Win and You're In.

Brilliant.

As bad a job as they've done, they and the American Horse Council did keep racing out of the clean sweep of gambling on the internet. If NOTHING else, that counts for a great deal. It's easier to fight from here on the defensive than to try to re-establish the positioning.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Kasept

As bad a job as they've done, they and the American Horse Council did keep racing out of the clean sweep of gambling on the internet. If NOTHING else, that counts for a great deal. It's easier to fight from here on the defensive than to try to re-establish the positioning.

In ten years of existence, the NTRA's only accomplishment is temporarily preventing the total elimination of the sport. Fan-friggen-tastic.

My point is that I can hardly fault someone who is tired of trusting other industry insiders to fix the problems the industry is facing.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by justindew

In ten years of existence, the NTRA's only accomplishment is temporarily preventing the total elimination of the sport. Fan-friggen-tastic.

My point is that I can hardly fault someone who is tired of trusting other industry insiders to fix the problems the industry is facing.

Who is tired on that panel? jess jackson? he has been in the game 5 years and has managed to sue half the people in it. Arthur hancock? He took the same position 20 years ago. I believe he is living in the past (which wasnt nearly as nice as he remembers) but his stance is older than the NTRA by 10 years. Jack Van Berg? He is a bitter old trainer that cant pay his bills. I may just as bitter as he is but the game moved on without him and he is mad. Randy Moss? I loved his line about being a trainer. When exactly was that? What is he tired of? The fact that the game which sucks so bad has allowed him to be on national tv? Or that the DRF has adapted his pace figures? He thrives yet calls for others to suffer (including bettors)because he is Mr. politically correct. Funny that the people with their agenda's on display pubically were allowed yet many others who asked to be on the panel were denied.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Who is tired on that panel? jess jackson? he has been in the game 5 years and has managed to sue half the people in it. Arthur hancock? He took the same position 20 years ago. I believe he is living in the past (which wasnt nearly as nice as he remembers) but his stance is older than the NTRA by 10 years. Jack Van Berg? He is a bitter old trainer that cant pay his bills. I may just as bitter as he is but the game moved on without him and he is mad. Randy Moss? I loved his line about being a trainer. When exactly was that? What is he tired of? The fact that the game which sucks so bad has allowed him to be on national tv? Or that the DRF has adapted his pace figures? He thrives yet calls for others to suffer (including bettors)because he is Mr. politically correct. Funny that the people with their agenda's on display pubically were allowed yet many others who asked to be on the panel were denied.

Then let's all come up with an alternative solution to the following problems:

1) Drugs have weakened the breed, which in turn makes the sport less interesting and fun, which in turn means fewer new fans discover the sport.

2) Drugs produce wasky results sometimes, which in turn drives new gamblers to poker or elsewhere where they THINK they have an edge, as opposed to driving them towards horse racing, where they KNOW FOR A FACT that unless they spend 70 hours a week watching replays and taking notes, they have no edge and are at a disadvantage unless they know who is cheating with drugs. (That's one unique thing about horse racing. It may be the one gambling activity where people correctly realize that they are at such a disadvantage that they actually won't bet, as opposed to every other gambling activity where they bet anyway, or they mistakenly think they have an advantage becasue they're just that good.)

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by justindew

Then let's all come up with an alternative solution to the following problems:

1) Drugs have weakened the breed, which in turn makes the sport less interesting and fun, which in turn means fewer new fans discover the sport.

2) Drugs produce wasky results sometimes, which in turn drives new gamblers to poker or elsewhere where they THINK they have an edge, as opposed to driving them towards horse racing, where they KNOW FOR A FACT that unless they spend 70 hours a week watching replays and taking notes, they have no edge and are at a disadvantage unless they know who is cheating with drugs. (That's one unique thing about horse racing. It may be the one gambling activity where people correctly realize that they are at such a disadvantage that they actually won't bet, as opposed to every other gambling activity where they bet anyway, or they mistakenly think they have an advantage becasue they're just that good.)

Drugs have not weakened the breed. There is zero scientific evidence that this is so.

People are not at a disadvantage betting because of drugs. This is a silly agrument. It is a variable that cant be quantified. Unless you had some inside information that some undetectable drug was going to be used in a particular race you have no advantage either. I love it when i hear that a guy can tell who's horses are drugged and whose arent.

The betting angle should be to lower takeout and stop worrying about drugs. then you will have a better chance of winning.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by justindew

Maybe years of being in the industry and seeing firsthand how f'ing stupid the decision makers are, by and large, has dampened the panel members' faith in the "host of people" you mention.

The NTRA has been around for 10 years with the goal of essentially making the sport more popular. What have they come up with? Go Baby Go!, and Win and You're In.

Brilliant.

The NTRA was designed as a marketing tool. Why anyone thought that it would or could serve as a league office is beyond me.