Top CASTRATORS

[pgiaco]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Check out Giant Chieftain in the 4th for Hough - $950,000 Son of Giant's Causeway out of a G1 producing mare - gelded.

Based on his race record, what stud fee would you be willing to pay to breed to Giant Chieftain?
While I would be pretty pissed off that I paid 950k, and he's stuck in a 2 other than and gelded as a 4 year old, the Robsham's have been with Stan Hough for a long time and know his routine. I also don't think that Hough called one day and said "Oh by the way Mrs. R, I gelded that Giant's Causeway colt you spent almost a million dollars for." I'm sure she (or at least her racing manager) had some say in the deed.

[the_fat_man]

The interesting Hough runner, to me, for the same owner, I believe, is Trippi's Storm. Didn't cost much but is certainly more valuable as a stallion given his improvement when switched to turf. Bet they wish he hadn't been gelded. Then again, maybe he doesn't get good unless he's gelded. I don't have the data but I wonder if he was gelded BEFORE they tried him on the turf. Gelding TS is bad enough but HOugh also made some errors in training with him and cost the owner at least a grade one and some nice bucks. Then again, given all the high priced horses that seem to not work out for them, they probably can afford it.

[pgiaco]

Agreed TFM, I'm not sure but I do think Trippi Storm was cut before he tried turf. Forgot about that one, it would tick me off too.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

The interesting Hough runner, to me, for the same owner, I believe, is Trippi's Storm. Didn't cost much but is certainly more valuable as a stallion given his improvement when switched to turf. Bet they wish he hadn't been gelded. Then again, maybe he doesn't get good unless he's gelded. I don't have the data but I wonder if he was gelded BEFORE they tried him on the turf. Gelding TS is bad enough but HOugh also made some errors in training with him and cost the owner at least a grade one and some nice bucks. Then again, given all the high priced horses that seem to not work out for them, they probably can afford it.

And why would anyone pay to breed to Trippi's Storm? HUH?

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by freddymo

And why would anyone pay to breed to Trippi's Storm? HUH?

Yeah; turf stallions aren't of much value.

However, the point is that GRADE 1 winning turf stallions are MORE VALUABLE than geldings without grade 1's.

Got anything interesting to add?

[Danzig]

seems there are plenty of good stallions around, and not so sure that more need to be added to the mix.
also, not a given that many geldings who turn out good would turn out so well if kept intact.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Yeah; turf stallions aren't of much value.

However, the point is that GRADE 1 winning turf stallions are MORE VALUABLE than geldings without grade 1's.

Got anything interesting to add?

Trippi has been an OK Florida based stallion. I believe he ran for Robsham if anyone ever wanted a son of Trippi to stand and succeeed it would be Robsham right? So my point is it's hard enough to book Trippi now you want want Robsham to try and make a son of Trippi who was OK on the turf with an average pedigree. I know the guy is super wealthy but have a heart. How many mares does this guy have to buy to give a Trippi's Storm a realistic shot. So I guess cutting the guy and having a nice turfer made more sense then hoping and investing in making him a legit stallion.

BTW his only value was as a racehorse that Hough and Robsham used to flatter Trippi Period

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by freddymo

So I guess cutting the guy and having a nice turfer made more sense then hoping and investing in making him a legit stallion.

BTW his only value was as a racehorse that Hough and Robsham used to flatter Trippi Period

He was good before they cut him. And ya, they were really trying to flatter Trippi - they ran the horse like 10 times on dirt before switching him to turf.

[Linny]

Trippi ran for Dogwood, not the Robshams. If a colt is hard to manage (Balto Star) or runty (like Kelso) or downright vicious (Forego) or a ridgeling who has some discomfort (Funny Cide) they will never attain their peak on the track anyhow so the owners buck it up and geld. Based on the percentage of horses that end up being truly valuable (or more realistically, financially viable) as a stallion, it's usually a safe bet. Everyone like to play "what if?" games when a gelding becomes a superstar.
Look at it this way: If a well bred colt can't get through the NW1 level how viable is he really as a stud prospect? Geld him, win a few stakes and everyone second guesses you. What they don't realize is that with his b@lls, he was never going to BE a stakes horse.
Everyone reads about the monster stud deals for horses like Street Sense or Big Brown but most decent graded horses get sold for a few hundred thousand which you could easily make with your newly minted gelding.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

He was good before they cut him. And ya, they were really trying to flatter Trippi - they ran the horse like 10 times on dirt before switching him to turf.

I know End Sweep turned out to be a surprisingly decent turf sire, but when did that reputation extend to Trippi, a horse who made a career out of winning 7f Grade 2 races on dirt?

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

The interesting Hough runner, to me, for the same owner, I believe, is Trippi's Storm. Didn't cost much but is certainly more valuable as a stallion given his improvement when switched to turf. Bet they wish he hadn't been gelded. Then again, maybe he doesn't get good unless he's gelded. I don't have the data but I wonder if he was gelded BEFORE they tried him on the turf. Gelding TS is bad enough but HOugh also made some errors in training with him and cost the owner at least a grade one and some nice bucks. Then again, given all the high priced horses that seem to not work out for them, they probably can afford it.

I'm pretty sure they gelded him before his first start in NY. I agree that they ended up screwing that horse up. I wonder if he ends up coming back. Hasn't had any workouts but I don't remember hearing that he was retired.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by pgiaco

Based on his race record, what stud fee would you be willing to pay to breed to Giant Chieftain?
While I would be pretty pissed off that I paid 950k, and he's stuck in a 2 other than and gelded as a 4 year old, the Robsham's have been with Stan Hough for a long time and know his routine. I also don't think that Hough called one day and said "Oh by the way Mrs. R, I gelded that Giant's Causeway colt you spent almost a million dollars for." I'm sure she (or at least her racing manager) had some say in the deed.

It's not like the horse is going to all of a sudden be a monster when he's gelded. Might as well save the genetics and breed him to a few mares and see what happens. Not every stud has to be marketable and worth $100K a pop.

[pgiaco]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

It's not like the horse is going to all of a sudden be a monster when he's gelded. Might as well save the genetics and breed him to a few mares and see what happens. Not every stud has to be marketable and worth $100K a pop.

I'm not saying every stallion has to stand for 100k, but given how he's performed I would not even shell out $1,000 to breed to him. There are enough stallions that shouldn't be standing as it is. Didn't see the down side of gelding him since there must have been reasons to cut him.

[hockey2315]

I completely understand your argument. With Hough, though, there may not have been a reason to geld. Personally if I shelled out $950K for a colt I'd be trying to get something back - and if the horse isn't very good - you've probably got a better chance doing it in the shed than on the track. He's actually not THAT bad of a horse, though.

[pgiaco]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

I completely understand your argument. With Hough, though, there may not have been a reason to geld. Personally if I shelled out $950K for a colt I'd be trying to get something back - and if the horse isn't very good - you've probably got a better chance doing it in the shed than on the track. He's actually not THAT bad of a horse, though.

I understand your point also, but I would find it very hard to believe that there wasn't a reason to geld Giant Chieftain. I know if I paid that much for him there better be a damn good reason to cut him and the trainer better have a good explanation why it's going to do him any good. From a stallion marketability standpoint he'd be better off being unraced, rather than the ad that says "impressive winner of one other than...."

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

I completely understand your argument. With Hough, though, there may not have been a reason to geld. Personally if I shelled out $950K for a colt I'd be trying to get something back - and if the horse isn't very good - you've probably got a better chance doing it in the shed than on the track. He's actually not THAT bad of a horse, though.

I'm guessing that you aren't mega wealthy so you have to understand that these type of people have a completely different mindset than you and I. Horses with pedigrees and race records like this one sell as stallion prospects at the end of the book in the Keeneland January sale for like $6000 every year.

[hockey2315]

After doing a little research. . . I figured out E. Paul Robsham is dead. . . he's survived by his wife who overlooks the stable. . . Doubt she's looking for stallion prospects, but it still seems a little strange to me to geld a horse like that.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

It's not like the horse is going to all of a sudden be a monster when he's gelded. Might as well save the genetics and breed him to a few mares and see what happens. Not every stud has to be marketable and worth $100K a pop.

Do you have any idea how much this costs?

[hockey2315]

Nope. . .

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Nope. . .

A lot more than you think. If you bought 6 mares to breed to him at a cost of $10000 you would have close to $250000 in bills before the first foals even hit the track and that is not counting training and breaking of the babies. And that is being conservative. Do you think it is worth a $250000 bet to see if he is any good which he almost assuredly wont be?