Big Brown - Overrated?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

For the last five years only, I'd go with:

3yo's only, non-sprinters

1-Smarty Jones
2-Bernardini
3-Curlin
4-Big Brown
5-Lion Heart
6-Afleet Alex
7-Barbaro
8-Street Sense
9-Flower Alley
10-Birdstone

On Sesame Street they used to play a game called "One of these things is not like the other." I played it with your list and came up with a couple of interesting tidbits. You have two horses who actually beat older horses in their 3YO campaigns and one did it twice. You have neither of them on top. I'm not even Jewish but oy vey.

Maybe I just wasn't much of a Smarty Jones guy. I have a hard time putting him ahead of #s 2-8 on your list save Lion Heart and remember that he was only 1-1 against Birdstone.

NT

[ELA]

The naysayers, even if Big Brown wins the Triple Crown, will still continue to say he's overrated. He could win the Belmont by a margain equal to Secretariat, and some, perhaps many, will still call him overrated.

Eric

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by ELA

The naysayers, even if Big Brown wins the Triple Crown, will still continue to say he's overrated. He could win the Belmont by a margain equal to Secretariat, and some, perhaps many, will still call him overrated.

Eric

This is the kind of sentiment that I just don't understand. Do we really all have to be either worshipers or naysayers? I, for one, am not ready to call this horse one of the all-time greats.
But he is certainly very good, and I wouldn't be at all shocked if he does give us a "wow" performance in the Belmont.
At this point, there is simply no doubt that he is overrated. But that doesn't mean that he isn't CAPABLE of proving his most ardent supporters correct in the Belmont.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by ELA

The naysayers, even if Big Brown wins the Triple Crown, will still continue to say he's overrated. He could win the Belmont by a margain equal to Secretariat, and some, perhaps many, will still call him overrated.

Eric

And the goo-goos, even if Big Brown were to lose in the Belmont, would still maintain that he is one of the greats. He could lose by the length of the stretch and many would no doubt offer up one excuse or another.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

On Sesame Street they used to play a game called "One of these things is not like the other." I played it with your list and came up with a couple of interesting tidbits. You have two horses who actually beat older horses in their 3YO campaigns and one did it twice. You have neither of them on top. I'm not even Jewish but oy vey.

Maybe I just wasn't much of a Smarty Jones guy. I have a hard time putting him ahead of #s 2-8 on your list save Lion Heart and remember that he was only 1-1 against Birdstone.

NT

So then, in your mind beating a horse that's older means more than beating a 3yo that's better than the older horse? I mean, Easy Goer beat older in the Whitney, Woodward, and JCGC......so was he better than Sunday Silence, who only beat older once? If El Gato Malo beats some of these pathetic older horses out here in CA in the Goodwood, should that elevate him over Big Brown as champion 3yo if BB wins the TC and then retires? Or what about if War Pass returns and beats BB in the Travers? Would that mean that El Gato Malo is better than War Pass? Shouldn't beating the best horses mean more than beating the oldest ones? Beating older horses doesn't mean much to me if the older horses aren't any good.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

So then, in your mind beating a horse that's older means more than beating a 3yo that's better than the older horse? I mean, Easy Goer beat older in the Whitney, Woodward, and JCGC......so was he better than Sunday Silence, who only beat older once? If El Gato Malo beats some of these pathetic older horses out here in CA in the Goodwood, should that elevate him over Big Brown as champion 3yo if BB wins the TC and then retires? Or what about if War Pass returns and beats BB in the Travers? Would that mean that El Gato Malo is better than War Pass? Shouldn't beating the best horses mean more than beating the oldest ones? Beating older horses doesn't mean much to me if the older horses aren't any good.

Clearly you don't understand my point. If you're not giving a 3YO extra credit for beating older horses in their 3YO season then you are presenting a very skewed set of criteria.

Once again you conveniently skirted around the fact that Curlin beat older horses twice, and they happened to be the best older horses that were available. Maybe not the best handicap division, but still older horses.

I could never agree with putting a horse like Smarty Jones ahead of Curlin in terms of respective 3YO campaigns.

NT

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

For the last five years only, I'd go with:

3yo's only, non-sprinters

1-Smarty Jones
2-Bernardini
3-Curlin
4-Big Brown
5-Lion Heart
6-Afleet Alex
7-Barbaro
8-Street Sense
9-Flower Alley
10-Birdstone

It's a good thing your list is non-sprinters only... we wouldn't want a horse like Keyed Entry to sneak above the impeccable Lion Heart or something crazy like that.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

It's a good thing your list is non-sprinters only... we wouldn't want a horse like Keyed Entry to sneak above the impeccable Lion Heart or something crazy like that.

In your opinion, after seeing that 49 and change go up in the Travers, how did you think that race was going to play out? If Lion Heart doesn't break his leg, is it that far of a stretch to assume that he could have won that race? If he does, he's a Derby runner-up, and a Haskell/Travers winner, winning the Travers while beating the Belmont winner. Where would he fit in the conversation then?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

In your opinion, after seeing that 49 and change go up in the Travers, how did you think that race was going to play out? If Lion Heart doesn't break his leg, is it that far of a stretch to assume that he could have won that race? If he does, he's a Derby runner-up, and a Haskell/Travers winner, winning the Travers while beating the Belmont winner. Where would he fit in the conversation then?

He was NEVER in a million years winning that Travers.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

In your opinion, after seeing that 49 and change go up in the Travers, how did you think that race was going to play out? If Lion Heart doesn't break his leg, is it that far of a stretch to assume that he could have won that race? If he does, he's a Derby runner-up, and a Haskell/Travers winner, winning the Travers while beating the Belmont winner. Where would he fit in the conversation then?

If you want to play God, and talk about ifs, then you need to reassess your list. But be please careful, it's like lighting a match during drought season.