Inspirational and depressing at the same time

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

This thread just goes to show how much of a crapshoot the breeding side of the business can be. The horses mentioned (or referenced) include Formal Gold, Skip Away, Louis Quatorze, Will's Way, Gentlemen, Silver Charm, Captain Bodgit, Free House, Behrens, Black Tie Affair and Touch Gold - all serious racehorses. Of all these, probably only Touch Gold could be considered a success at stud.

None of these top runners was fashionably-bred; in fact, they were all considered a bit 'down-market' in their breeding and were treated accordingly by the top tier breeders. They got the mares who were out of the half-sisters to the good runners instead of the half-sisters themselves, that sort of thing. Captain Bodgit died young, too.

[VOL JACK]

Funny that a horse could run second twice while earning a 122 and 126 beyer. How times have changed.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

Funny that a horse could run second twice while earning a 122 and 126 beyer. How times have changed.

...and when is the last time the 5th place finisher in the BC Classic earned a 108?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by justindew

...and when is the last time the 5th place finisher in the BC Classic earned a 108?

2004, actually it was a 109 then.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

2004, actually it was a 109 then.

I think that was Azeri. She got a 109? Really? Wow.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by justindew

I think that was Azeri. She got a 109? Really? Wow.

Lifetime she had a 112, a 111, two 110s, and four 109s. Now we get excited when a mare runs a 105.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Lifetime she had a 112, a 111, two 110s, and four 109s. Now we get excited when a mare runs a 105.

Oh, I wasn't surprised she ran a 109, I was surprised she ran a 109 in the BC Calssic.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

None of these top runners was fashionably-bred; in fact, they were all considered a bit 'down-market' in their breeding and were treated accordingly by the top tier breeders. They got the mares who were out of the half-sisters to the good runners instead of the half-sisters themselves, that sort of thing. Captain Bodgit died young, too.

I agree that some were not fashionably bred, but compared to the others listed above, Behrens (Pleasant Colony), Will's Way (Easy Goer) and Captain Bodgit (Saint Ballado) certainly fit the bill. Starting out, they were certainly no less fashionably bred than horses like Indian Charlie (In Excess), Valid Expectations (Valid Appeal), Northern Afleet (Afleet), and Smoke Glacken (Two Punch).

Horses like Distorted Humor, Arch, and Elusive Quality all began their careers at stud fees in the $10,000 range, so it's not like they were getting bred to top mares when they started out. They just outperformed their more recognizable (from a racing perspective) contemporaries in the breeding shed and, as a result, are now getting the top mares that they earned the hard way.

Finally, the Thoroughbred Times Stallion Directory lists Captain Bodgit as standing in Canada.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I agree that some were not fashionably bred, but compared to the others listed above, Behrens (Pleasant Colony), Will's Way (Easy Goer) and Captain Bodgit (Saint Ballado) certainly fit the bill. Starting out, they were certainly no less fashionably bred than horses like Indian Charlie (In Excess), Valid Expectations (Valid Appeal), Northern Afleet (Afleet), and Smoke Glacken (Two Punch).

Horses like Distorted Humor, Arch, and Elusive Quality all began their careers at stud fees in the $10,000 range, so it's not like they were getting bred to top mares when they started out. They just outperformed their more recognizable (from a racing perspective) contemporaries in the breeding shed and, as a result, are now getting the top mares that they earned the hard way.

Finally, the Thoroughbred Times Stallion Directory lists Captain Bodgit as standing in Canada.

Northern Afleet should not be included with IC, VE, or SG. Outside of Afleet Alex he has no top class runners. He ranked in the 60's on last years sire list. he is fair at best as a sire

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Northern Afleet should not be included with IC, VE, or SG. Outside of Afleet Alex he has no top class runners. He ranked in the 60's on last years sire list. he is fair at best as a sire

You missed the point. I was comparing Skip Away, Behrens, Silver Charm and company to other horses that began their stud careers in 1998 and 1999. Considering the relatively low quality mares that Northern Afleet saw in Florida when he first started (I believe he was standing for as low as $5,000), he has been an "overachiever" as a sire. He has consistently "moved up" his mares (AEI of 1.63 v. CI of 1.43), so it will be interesting to see what he does with the better opportunities afforded him recently; his first KY-conceived crop of horses (on a $12,500 stud fee) hit the ground this year.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

You missed the point. I was comparing Skip Away, Behrens, Silver Charm and company to other horses that began their stud careers in 1998 and 1999. Considering the relatively low quality mares that Northern Afleet saw in Florida when he first started (I believe he was standing for as low as $5,000), he has been an "overachiever" as a sire. He has consistently "moved up" his mares (AEI of 1.63 v. CI of 1.43), so it will be interesting to see what he does with the better opportunities afforded him recently; his first KY-conceived crop of horses (on a $12,500 stud fee) hit the ground this year.

He is a weak sire. His number of stakes winners for a 15 year old stallion with 7 crops of racing age is 16 which is not good. He has had one horse of note in 7 crops. His 1st and 3rd leading money winners are out of the same mare(who needs to get a lot of the credit). His AEI and CI's are skewed by the fact he stood in FL where many mares havent earned a lot of money, especially in relation to slot fueled purses elsewhere, but are still solid producers. I dont think he got much for mares in KY except the older or cheaper ones. Unfortunately for me I have 3 coming next year for a client unless a miracle happens and he can sell them. I guess I may be biased but after 7 crops I would like to see a whole lot more. It wasnt like he was standing in Wyoming.

I know Skip Away probably had better mares to start out but his numbers are better than NA, and personally I think SC is a better sire also. Beherns, notsomuch

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He is a weak sire. His number of stakes winners for a 15 year old stallion with 7 crops of racing age is 16 which is not good. He has had one horse of note in 7 crops. His 1st and 3rd leading money winners are out of the same mare(who needs to get a lot of the credit). His AEI and CI's are skewed by the fact he stood in FL where many mares havent earned a lot of money, especially in relation to slot fueled purses elsewhere, but are still solid producers. I dont think he got much for mares in KY except the older or cheaper ones. Unfortunately for me I have 3 coming next year for a client unless a miracle happens and he can sell them. I guess I may be biased but after 7 crops I would like to see a whole lot more. It wasnt like he was standing in Wyoming.

I know Skip Away probably had better mares to start out but his numbers are better than NA, and personally I think SC is a better sire also. Beherns, notsomuch

Chuck go look at the book NA was bred to like 6 years ago..I swear some of them weren't TB's.. I reviewed his entire book once Afleet Alex started to emerge and I didn't see a single quality mare out of the 40 to 50 he had been bred to.. I think you have to wait and see what happens now that he has some sponsorship.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Chuck go look at the book NA was bred to like 6 years ago..I swear some of them weren't TB's.. I reviewed his entire book once Afleet Alex started to emerge and I didn't see a single quality mare out of the 40 to 50 he had been bred to.. I think you have to wait and see what happens now that he has some sponsorship.

16 stakes winners out of 571 foals is really weak. He should be a $4000 regional sire.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I know Skip Away probably had better mares to start out but his numbers are better than NA

I guess we can agree to disagree on Northern Afleet as a sire. To my way of thinking, if he's on the top 100 sire list given the opportunities that he's had, I have a hard time calling him "weak."

As for Skip Away, he's never had a horse of significance, his AEI (1.32) is below his CI (1.43), and his yearlings and 2YOs sell for next to nothing, so I fail to see how "his numbers are better than" Northern Afleet.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I guess we can agree to disagree on Northern Afleet as a sire. To my way of thinking, if he's on the top 100 sire list given the opportunities that he's had, I have a hard time calling him "weak."

As for Skip Away, he's never had a horse of significance, his AEI (1.32) is below his CI (1.43), and his yearlings and 2YOs sell for next to nothing, so I fail to see how "his numbers are better than" Northern Afleet.

take away AA and what do you have? He is a one horse wonder. 571 foals and 16 stakes winners and 13 stakes place horses. that is a miserable number. This is after 7 crops. That is very weak. We arent talking graded stakes horses, just stakes horses. Including all those bs calder stakes. If not for the mother of AA and UM he would have virtually no top flight horses. He is not a Bad sire but he is not very good yet and projecting success based on getting better mares is dangerous.

SA has had more graded stakes winners, stakes winners and stakes placed horses than NA and the last few years he has had foal crops of 50 or less. he aint good but it is hard to make a case that NA is better.

Maybe I am being elitist but to my thinking you could breed to billy goats and be on the top 100 sire list

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cardus

All mares are earned that way, I guess.

well, yeah, that's true...

[prudery]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

None of these top runners was fashionably-bred; in fact, they were all considered a bit 'down-market' in their breeding and were treated accordingly by the top tier breeders. They got the mares who were out of the half-sisters to the good runners instead of the half-sisters themselves, that sort of thing. Captain Bodgit died young, too.

Actually, Ann, it was Saint Ballado-- the Captain's SIRE that died young ....

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

None of these top runners was fashionably-bred; in fact, they were all considered a bit 'down-market' in their breeding and were treated accordingly by the top tier breeders. They got the mares who were out of the half-sisters to the good runners instead of the half-sisters themselves, that sort of thing. Captain Bodgit died young, too.

The Captain is alive and kicking.