now nyra is thinking about it

[pgiaco]

Am I missing something? Is there anything to suggest that the NYRA main tracks are unsafe or are responsible for an increased incidence of injuries or breakdowns?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by pgiaco

Am I missing something? Is there anything to suggest that the NYRA main tracks are unsafe or are responsible for an increased incidence of injuries or breakdowns?

Nope, but the synthetic advocates keep spouting off improved numbers based on tracks that made the switch cause they had such high breakdown rates and of course their breakdown rates were going to improve the next year whether they stuck with the same track, put in a new dirt one, or put in a synthetic. That is what happens when you have an outlier in a data series, it regresses to the mean the following year.

[sumitas]

Originally Posted by pgiaco

Am I missing something? Is there anything to suggest that the NYRA main tracks are unsafe or are responsible for an increased incidence of injuries or breakdowns?

Of course we recall that one record after another fell at the Spa last meet. And how many horses were injured there? Majestic Warrior has never been the same, Mymayonniase has dropped from sight, etc. The Spa super hard track conditions were vehemently criticised last August.

Reflecting back to last fall when a huge deluge covered the mideast for the week of the BC. Keeneland was super impressive with their drainage and the track played much the same throughout their 17 day meet, regardless of rain. Now compare that with Monmouth or any dirt track under those conditions.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by sumitas

Of course we recall that one record after another fell at the Spa last meet. And how many horses were injured there? Majestic Warrior has never been the same, Mymayonniase has dropped from sight, etc. The Spa super hard track conditions were vehemently criticised last August.

Reflecting back to last fall when a huge deluge covered the mideast for the week of the BC. Keeneland was super impressive with their drainage and the track played much the same throughout their 17 day meet, regardless of rain. Now compare that with Monmouth.

Majestic Warrior was never good to begin with and how many times have we seen a fast, high priced Baffert 2yo drop off the radar? How many breakdowns were there on the dirt at Saratoga last year? Can you name one other than the Frankel horse that broke her hip in the Ballerina? One breakdown in a 6 week meet is better than any synthetic has ever done.

[sumitas]

Good point. the critism leveled, as i recall, was directed at the way the dirt surface was prepared, very hard, not at any fundamental problems with the engineering of the track itself. Dirt can be a hard or a softer, deeper surface, as we know.

[pgiaco]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Majestic Warrior was never good to begin with and how many times have we seen a fast, high priced Baffert 2yo drop off the radar? How many breakdowns were there on the dirt at Saratoga last year? Can you name one other than the Frankel horse that broke her hip in the Ballerina? One breakdown in a 6 week meet is better than any synthetic has ever done.

Don't forget that injury was probably the result of her hitting the gate at the break, not from the surface.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by pgiaco

Don't forget that injury was probably the result of her hitting the gate at the break, not from the surface.

yeah, I know, makes it all the more amazing.

[parsixfarms]

The hard tracks at Saratoga last summer were not well received by many trainers due to the track super's policy of sealing the tracks each night and from what I understand were the return of some questionable maintenance practices. If you recall, there were meetings among trainers and NYRA officials about the condition of both the main and Oklahoma training tracks. I know that I spoke to our vet over Labor Day weekend last year (as he was x-raying one of our horses), and he said that he had x-rayed more ankles last summer where there was nothing "wrong" with the horse. That there was not a rash of breakdowns during the afternoon does not mean that the tracks were in good shape.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Majestic Warrior was never good to begin with and how many times have we seen a fast, high priced Baffert 2yo drop off the radar? How many breakdowns were there on the dirt at Saratoga last year? Can you name one other than the Frankel horse that broke her hip in the Ballerina? One breakdown in a 6 week meet is better than any synthetic has ever done.

To be fair there were a lot of breakdowns last year in the am at Saratoga. But I get your point.

Of course one thing that everyone is forgetting when they advocate the money should be spent on a "safer" dirt surfaces either doesnt know or understand why tracks installed them in the first place. It was not only billed as a "bias free" and safer surface but maintenance free as well. The initial cost was supposed to be covered in 3 or 4 years by having track maintenance budgets slashed. A "safer" dirt surface will still cost the same or more to maintain than a "non-safe" or current surface. The tracks were thinking bottom line, not safety, regardless of what they are saying now.

[pointman]

This is really a non-issue as NYRA can't afford to replace the tracks anyway, New York will be running on dirt for the forseeable future. This is obviously a response to the knee jerk reaction from the Derby that breakdowns have to be reduced, the type of reaction that California fell for in 2006. And to the poster who mentioned Smarty, Afleet Alex and Giacomo getting injured, I don't see how Scrappy T wiping out Afleet Alex had anything to do with the track. Giacomo was just slow. Smarty's injury was minor, they just wanted an excuse to retire him.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pointman

This is really a non-issue as NYRA can't afford to replace the tracks anyway, New York will be running on dirt for the forseeable future. This is obviously a response to the knee jerk reaction from the Derby that breakdowns have to be reduced, the type of reaction that California fell for in 2006. And to the poster who mentioned Smarty, Afleet Alex and Giacomo getting injured, I don't see how Scrappy T wiping out Afleet Alex had anything to do with the track. Giacomo was just slow. Smarty's injury was minor, they just wanted an excuse to retire him.

Giacomo was injured?

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Giacomo was injured?

That was the same reaction I had.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

To be fair there were a lot of breakdowns last year in the am at Saratoga. But I get your point.

Of course one thing that everyone is forgetting when they advocate the money should be spent on a "safer" dirt surfaces either doesnt know or understand why tracks installed them in the first place. It was not only billed as a "bias free" and safer surface but maintenance free as well. The initial cost was supposed to be covered in 3 or 4 years by having track maintenance budgets slashed. A "safer" dirt surface will still cost the same or more to maintain than a "non-safe" or current surface. The tracks were thinking bottom line, not safety, regardless of what they are saying now.

yes but it turned out the synthetic surfaces then did need to be maintained and harrowed and watered similarly to dirt tracks.

They were promoting "saving 475,000 per year on maintenance" or some bs like that. turns out not the case!

[sumitas]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

To be fair there were a lot of breakdowns last year in the am at Saratoga. But I get your point.

Of course one thing that everyone is forgetting when they advocate the money should be spent on a "safer" dirt surfaces either doesnt know or understand why tracks installed them in the first place. It was not only billed as a "bias free" and safer surface but maintenance free as well. The initial cost was supposed to be covered in 3 or 4 years by having track maintenance budgets slashed. A "safer" dirt surface will still cost the same or more to maintain than a "non-safe" or current surface. The tracks were thinking bottom line, not safety, regardless of what they are saying now.

Maybe in England the poly tracks are somewhat maintenance free in that their wetter climate is perfectly suited to that surface. We've come to see the affect different climates have, however.