Dubai v. Breeders Cup question...

[CSC]

Originally Posted by smuthg

I've attended the last 3 Breeders' Cups in person and I think at least 3 horses to my count have broken down on the track (GW, Fleet Indian and the Phipps filly in the Distaff) [and I think they actually lost one at Belmont in 05], yet I've watched the last couple Dubai World Cup day series of races and don't think I've even noticed a horse being pulled up... Is this a product of the lack of drugs, better surface, luck or some product of all three...

To expand on the injury thoery, I have been watching Australian racing for the better part of 4-5 years now and I have rarely seen a horse break down during a race. Infact I can only think of one horse breaking down during the stretch unseating the jockey. Not sure why that is, perhaps turf is more forgiving I don't know? But it always struck me how safe racing was over there.

[pmayjr]

Originally Posted by CSC

To expand on the injury thoery, I have been watching Australian racing for the better part of 4-5 years now and I have rarely seen a horse break down during a race. Infact I can only think of one horse breaking down during the stretch unseating the jockey. Not sure why that is, perhaps turf is more forgiving I don't know? But it always struck me how safe racing was over there.

Well they don't allow drugs in Australia either. In fact (I think Brock or MyMissStormCat could verify this) I think they test the winning horses for drugs literally right after the race ends. That's why it takes awhile for the offical payouts to come in when you play Australia. Also, horses there seem to run a lot more frequently. They're a lot more fit it seems. If the powers-that-be here would ban drugs... sorry, pipe-dreams...

[CSC]

Originally Posted by pmayjr

Well they don't allow drugs in Australia either. In fact (I think Brock or MyMissStormCat could verify this) I think they test the winning horses for drugs literally right after the race ends. That's why it takes awhile for the offical payouts to come in when you play Australia. Also, horses there seem to run a lot more frequently. They're a lot more fit it seems. If the powers-that-be here would ban drugs... sorry, pipe-dreams...

True, many horses have run 1 week prior to the 2 mile Melbourne Cup prepping in 1 1/2 races stake races. If they did that here, the Trainer would be submitted to supply a specimen for possible drug use...It's amazing how sturdy their horses are over there. First time I noticed that I was blown away and then we have horses running 6 times over a yr and complaining of hard campaigns. Doesn't make sense does it?

[pmayjr]

Originally Posted by CSC

True, many horses have run 1 week prior to the 2 mile Melbourne Cup prepping in 1 1/2 races stake races. If they did that here, the Trainer would be submitted to supply a specimen for possible drug use...It's amazing how sturdy their horses are over there. First time I noticed that I was blown away and then we have horses running 6 times over a yr and complaining of hard campaigns. Doesn't make sense does it?

horses here are like starting pitchers in MLB these days... are people's physiology that much different that they can't throw on 3 days rest? Teams in the early-mid 90s were still usin 4-man rotations right? Instead of worrying about the strain, pitchers can't build up proper endurance and so they still get hurt all the time. Horses would build up stamina and endurance and better strength if they ran more too. But the common denominator between horses and starting pitchers, owners have too much $$$ at stake to "risk it" lol.

But, I'll pose this question. Darley and Godolphin have big operations in Australia too right? Do their horses run more frequently there than they do here?

[jwkniska]

Originally Posted by CSC

True, many horses have run 1 week prior to the 2 mile Melbourne Cup prepping in 1 1/2 races stake races. If they did that here, the Trainer would be submitted to supply a specimen for possible drug use...It's amazing how sturdy their horses are over there. First time I noticed that I was blown away and then we have horses running 6 times over a yr and complaining of hard campaigns. Doesn't make sense does it?

A couple of years ago, the winner of the Beverly D at AP ran in a 9-10F race the week before at 'toga.... tossed her due to that and the horse burned me bigtime. Angara cost me the pick 4 that day.

[Cannon Shell]

The thought that bloodlines in the US are the same is not exactly correct. While in recent years there have been more American bloodlines imported into Australia the vast majority of the mares contain very little relation to American mares. Northern Dancer blood is incredibly infused there but mainly through European connections. One very prominent name that is found everywhere in American pedigrees and hardly anywhere in Austalian ones is Storm Cat. The full effects of the shuttle stallions will take many years to judge.

The fact that all racing is done on turf and much of it at sprint distances is something that would make it much easier to run back on short rest as opposed to dirt racing and training. It has been my experience that horses come back much fresher in general after turf sprints than any other type of race.

The racing card at Dubai is of much greater all around quality than the Breeders Cup. There are many horses in the BC that are not much more than allowances horses. I would have to think that George Washington's breakdown would be a stretch to blame on drugs.

Everybody tells me that we train our horses too soft but Allen Jerkens who is about the only trainer left from the older generation tells me that he had to lighten his training schedules because the horses simply werent holding up.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The racing card at Dubai is of much greater all around quality than the Breeders Cup.

I don't agree at all as far as the dirt races are concerned.

And as far as the turf races go - we tend to get the top few horses from Europe in most years...while the Dubai World Cup comes at a time when Europe's best are on the sidelines.

If you look at this years World Cup - it was basically a showcase for South African turf horses and American dirt horses.

The only reason America doesn't own the UAE Derby is because none of our decent 3yo's go there...unless it's a case like with Discreet Cat or Express Tour and Street Cry where they are Godolphin owned runners who were American 2yo's.

[King Glorious]

I really don't know the answer but I would not be surprised if the drug issue does have something to do with it. Over here, we are constantly running horses on drugs so many problems are masked that come out from time to time. Seems like in a lot of other places, the horses that NEED the drugs to run are sent here and the ones that don't stay home so when we get a day like the World Cup, the majority of the horses (the non-Americans) are pretty healthy horses and less likely to break down.

[pgiaco]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I don't agree at all as far as the dirt races are concerned.
.

The only reason America doesn't own the UAE Derby is because none of our decent 3yo's go there...unless it's a case like with Discreet Cat or Express Tour and Street Cry where they are Godolphin owned runners who were American 2yo's.

I think running against the Southern Hemisphere 3 year olds puts the US 3 year olds at a significant disadvantage. I would hesitate to send a good 3 year old over at this time of year even though you can't argue with the money.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I don't agree at all as far as the dirt races are concerned.

And as far as the turf races go - we tend to get the top few horses from Europe in most years...while the Dubai World Cup comes at a time when Europe's best are on the sidelines.

If you look at this years World Cup - it was basically a showcase for South African turf horses and American dirt horses.

The only reason America doesn't own the UAE Derby is because none of our decent 3yo's go there...unless it's a case like with Discreet Cat or Express Tour and Street Cry where they are Godolphin owned runners who were American 2yo's.

The fields are more accomplished through and through with the possible exception of the classic versus the World Cup but many of the WC participants arent necessarily dirt horses but that doesnt mean they arent quality.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The thought that bloodlines in the US are the same is not exactly correct. While in recent years there have been more American bloodlines imported into Australia the vast majority of the mares contain very little relation to American mares. Northern Dancer blood is incredibly infused there but mainly through European connections. One very prominent name that is found everywhere in American pedigrees and hardly anywhere in Austalian ones is Storm Cat. The full effects of the shuttle stallions will take many years to judge.

The fact that all racing is done on turf and much of it at sprint distances is something that would make it much easier to run back on short rest as opposed to dirt racing and training. It has been my experience that horses come back much fresher in general after turf sprints than any other type of race.

The racing card at Dubai is of much greater all around quality than the Breeders Cup. There are many horses in the BC that are not much more than allowances horses. I would have to think that George Washington's breakdown would be a stretch to blame on drugs.

Everybody tells me that we train our horses too soft but Allen Jerkens who is about the only trainer left from the older generation tells me that he had to lighten his training schedules because the horses simply werent holding up.

but many of the euros, who have shuttled there for years, are descendants of north american stallions. but then again, the same could be said for ours, in that for years we went to europe to freshen our bloodlines. i don't think the breed in general is very divergent, since all horses feed back to only three foundation sires-unlike lipizzaners for instance, with six.

i think that the reason behind more sturdy horses overseas is the predominance of turf racing-as many have noted, turf racing is kinder to a horse. i would also think training would have something to do with it as well, with many euros taking their horses for longer rides over undulating countryside, not just jogging about on a dirt track every day. we have to deal with what we have here, but i don't think that shouting 'drugs' is the answer. especially when so many from overseas rush to the vet as soon as their charges land here.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

but many of the euros, who have shuttled there for years, are descendants of north american stallions. but then again, the same could be said for ours, in that for years we went to europe to freshen our bloodlines. i don't think the breed in general is very divergent, since all horses feed back to only three foundation sires-unlike lipizzaners for instance, with six.

i think that the reason behind more sturdy horses overseas is the predominance of turf racing-as many have noted, turf racing is kinder to a horse. i would also think training would have something to do with it as well, with many euros taking their horses for longer rides over undulating countryside, not just jogging about on a dirt track every day. we have to deal with what we have here, but i don't think that shouting 'drugs' is the answer. especially when so many from overseas rush to the vet as soon as their charges land here.

Yeah 300 years ago. There are strains that have developed independently of especially in a isolated place like Australia. Look up the pedigree pages at a sale like Magic Millions and look at the dams bloodlines. It is almost strictly turf or European influenced. There isnt nearly the amount of Mr. P or Storm Cat blood that is found in American, dirt pedigrees.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by CSC

To expand on the injury thoery, I have been watching Australian racing for the better part of 4-5 years now and I have rarely seen a horse break down during a race. Infact I can only think of one horse breaking down during the stretch unseating the jockey. Not sure why that is, perhaps turf is more forgiving I don't know? But it always struck me how safe racing was over there.

a study a few years ago did say that turf showed to be kinder, less breakdowns/injuries then dirt.

as for aussie horses, no bleeders allowed. no lasix, a horse who bleeds twice is thru. i think those rules follow thru to the breeding shed as well.

but keep in mind that many north american and european horses shuttle to australia, so it's the same bloodlines we have here. makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[pgiaco]

Originally Posted by CSC

To expand on the injury thoery, I have been watching Australian racing for the better part of 4-5 years now and I have rarely seen a horse break down during a race. Infact I can only think of one horse breaking down during the stretch unseating the jockey. Not sure why that is, perhaps turf is more forgiving I don't know? But it always struck me how safe racing was over there.

There was an horrific breakdown either on Melbourne Cup Day or the day before, as bad as you would see this side of Go For Wand.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by pgiaco

There was an horrific breakdown either on Melbourne Cup Day or the day before, as bad as you would see this side of Go For Wand.

I'm sure there are breakdowns everywhere, if my memory is correct that might even be the breakdown that I remember as well if it was in 2007. My perception of watching these races is it just doesn't happen as often as in racing in North America. Racing in Hong Kong is very similar, I have been watching racing there for pretty much the same time, horses are well taken care of over there where drugs are very much looked down upon with a zero tolerance rule.