Past Posting Proven once again.....perhaps 49 combinations of one race!!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Who is doing the canceling and why isnt that person being brought up on charges of some sort?

Growing up, there was always a 5 second delay (to cancel a ticket) after the start of a race that I believe was in place to leave tellers time to cancel any mistakes so they wouldn't have to eat the bet.

The situation was if you had a sprawling 3 room OTB on a weekday night when no one was there, you got Charlestown on the big screen in the empty room, and if your horse didn't break well in the 4.5 furlong dash, you cancel your bet and wait for the next one.

They did away with it about five years or so ago I believe. I certainly don't know of any betters or tellers or betting tellers who've done it since.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by justindew

We aren't talking about manipulation of pools. We're talking about cancelling tickets after the race has started, which appears to be allowed because of a glitch in the system. Yes, the cancelling of tickets happens to manipulate pools, but unless it is provable that a person intended to manipulate a pool (which may not even be a crime-I'm not sure), it would be nearly impossible to charge someone with a crime.

Huh? If cancelling a ticket is pool manipulation then how hard would it be to prove intent? "I pushed the button by mistake" defense? Wouldnt fraud be a possible crime?

[SniperSB23]

Would any money actually be lost by closing wagering as soon as the first horse is loaded into the gate? Once everyone was used to it wouldn't they just place their bets 30 seconds early and handle would be just the same? Sure you'd have people not getting their bets in on time and blaming the new system but in reality those would be the same people that wind up not getting their bets in on time as it is. And if you are 5 seconds late closing the pools sometime then they would still be loading horses when the pool closes so you wouldn't gain a significant advantage.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Huh? If cancelling a ticket is pool manipulation then how hard would it be to prove intent? "I pushed the button by mistake" defense? Wouldnt fraud be a possible crime?

But cancelling a ticket is legal. Even if there was a law that said cancelling a ticket after the race started was illegal, you would still have to prove the bettor intended to break the law and knew the race had started. The bettor could always say "Hey, I made the wrong bet, told the clerk, and he cancelled it. I didn't know the race had started." Now, if cancelling a ticket after the race started required some extensive computer work like hacking some computer program, that's another story.

And there's always the possibility that the bettor is an idiot and decides to tell a bunch of people what he and the mutuel clerk are doing.

[deltagulf]

Originally Posted by justindew

For there to be a violation of law, there has to be malicious intent, and that might be tough to prove in this case.

why if cancelled the bettor has seen his horse or horses have no change of ticket coming in. some law against that.

[fpsoxfan]

I'd be very surprised if these cancellations aren't part of a dirty scheme between the tracks and big bettors. As has been said many times before when this topic has come up, it seems that this day and age they should be able to come up with a system to shut down all betting the exact second that gate opens. Until then, we can argue all we want about this but it's not going to change a single thing. If it bothers people so much, then don't wager.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by deltagulf

why if cancelled the bettor has seen his horse or horses have no change of ticket coming in. some law against that.

So then you're going to have to have some set standard as to when a horse is deemed to have "no chance" after the start. Does anyone really think we are going to see a law that says "when a confirmed front runner breaks slower than usual, he is herby deemed to have no chance. And any tickets using this horse that are cancelled after the start of the race, intentionally or unintentionally, can be used as proof of illegal activity"?

Prosecuting people for cancelling tickets at any time is impossible unless there is some other overt act, such as hacking into a computer or pushing a button that keep the pools open longer than allowed by law.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

It would be unfair for me not to respond to this, as this statement is similar to what got the other arguement about this started. Honestly, it's this attitude that enables people to screw the bettor.

Don't like how we're cheating, well don't bet. Huh?

You gamble with your hard earned money. Doesn't the fact that shi t like this goes on bother you?

Yes.

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

It would be unfair for me not to respond to this, as this statement is similar to what got the other arguement about this started. Honestly, it's this attitude that enables people to screw the bettor.

Don't like how we're cheating, well don't bet. Huh?

You gamble with your hard earned money. Doesn't the fact that shi t like this goes on bother you?

Sure it does Hossy, but come on we are the little people. I wish I had inside information on stocks, I wish I Knew every judge in every county to get me out of a ticket. Do I want an $11 payout on a win ticket as opposed to $10?
No doubt, but the question lies in the fact is there anything you and I can do about it?? Likely not. I don't want the answer to be shutting down betting a minute before post.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by fpsoxfan

I'd be very surprised if these cancellations aren't part of a dirty scheme between the tracks and big bettors. As has been said many times before when this topic has come up, it seems that this day and age they should be able to come up with a system to shut down all betting the exact second that gate opens. Until then, we can argue all we want about this but it's not going to change a single thing. If it bothers people so much, then don't wager.

You are giving the tracks way too much credit. Very few if any are clever enough to take care of big bettors in a legal fashion, let alone a possibly illegal one.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by justindew

So then you're going to have to have some set standard as to when a horse is deemed to have "no chance" after the start. Does anyone really think we are going to see a law that says "when a confirmed front runner breaks slower than usual, he is herby deemed to have no chance. And any tickets using this horse that are cancelled after the start of the race, intentionally or unintentionally, can be used as proof of illegal activity"?

Prosecuting people for cancelling tickets at any time is impossible unless there is some other overt act, such as hacking into a computer or pushing a button that keep the pools open longer than allowed by law.

According to what we are hearing, at least publically, they would have no idea if this was happening anyway.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by fpsoxfan

[/b]

Sure it does Hossy, but come on we are the little people. I wish I had inside information on stocks, I wish I Knew every judge in every county to get me out of a ticket. Do I want an $11 payout on a win ticket as opposed to $10?
No doubt, but the question lies in the fact is there anything you and I can do about it?? Likely not. I don't want the answer to be shutting down betting a minute before post.

Which isnt the answer if people are gaining access to the pools anyway.

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are giving the tracks way too much credit. Very few if any are clever enough to take care of big bettors in a legal fashion, let alone a possibly illegal one.

Good Point.

[Riot]

So ... I make a wager three minutes to post at the track - I somehow keep a window and teller clear of other patrons trying to bet that race and other races when my race goes off, so I have a teller at my beck and call - in three seconds ... one-onethousand, two-onethousand, three-onethousand .... I :

- watch the gate open
- watch my horse go off
- decide if the break was good or bad enough for my horse
- turn to the clerk and say, "Cancel this bet!" and hand my ticket back
- the bet gets entered and canceled

All of the above three seconds? I don't think so.

Alternative? Cancel a bet from an ADW? Nope. From a betting machine at the track? Nope.

So, the bettor and the teller must have been in cahoots together, with the ticket literally sitting in the machine, the teller's hand poised over the "cancel" button ... and as the "cancel" came through - was finished - three seconds after the break, the decision to cancel must have been made between break and 2 seconds.

Sure. Someone got one hell of an advantage there.

[Riot]

I dunno, Hoss - that 5 seconds includes the break, initial observation (1-3 seconds?) then decision to cancel, and then getting the bet successfully canceled. Tight timeline.

Definitely would have to be planned before time, with everything in place and someone set to hit the cancel button immediately if the gate break was unfavorable to the chosen horse

(how the heck would you see that break well enough? hard to see numbers/silks on TV's, and at the track, unless break right in front of grandstand?)

That's alot to pull off in a couple of seconds. That would involve someone with tote access placing his own bets, or obvious collusion between bettor/teller. If someone is doing it, they need to go to jail.

I did make $400 or so of wagers once (a huge $$ bet for me), and realized right after I made the bets that I had the wrong number horse - a definite no-way loser - keyed in all the bets. Panic time - I got the bets cancelled literally as the bell was ringing (at Kee). That had to show on the tote at the next click after horses were running.

We just don't know enough. When a whale can deliberately play past-post games and document problems, that's scary.

The question is still how extensive is the opportunity for true past posting (versus the changes that happen with final pool totalisation), and can past posting be reliably exploited and abused?

I suspect the first may be greater than we know, and the second less than we fear.

I could certainly be wrong.

[docicu3]

My that was fun today.....

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by Mumtaz

So ... I make a wager three minutes to post at the track - I somehow keep a window and teller clear of other patrons trying to bet that race and other races when my race goes off, so I have a teller at my beck and call - in three seconds ... one-onethousand, two-onethousand, three-onethousand .... I :

- watch the gate open
- watch my horse go off
- decide if the break was good or bad enough for my horse
- turn to the clerk and say, "Cancel this bet!" and hand my ticket back
- the bet gets entered and canceled

All of the above three seconds? I don't think so.

What if the bettor that is cancelling is the teller (they've been known to punch a ticket or two for themselves). Takes the highlighted step out of the equation.

Replace that step with:

- ticket is loaded and finger rests on the cancel button.

[herkhorse]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

What if the bettor that is cancelling is the teller (they've been known to punch a ticket or two for themselves). Takes the highlighted step out of the equation.

Replace that step with:

- ticket is loaded and finger rests on the cancel button.

I was thinking the same thing. Who would know more about what they can get away with than the tellers?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Mumtaz

So ... I make a wager three minutes to post at the track - I somehow keep a window and teller clear of other patrons trying to bet that race and other races when my race goes off, so I have a teller at my beck and call - in three seconds ... one-onethousand, two-onethousand, three-onethousand .... I :

- watch the gate open
- watch my horse go off
- decide if the break was good or bad enough for my horse
- turn to the clerk and say, "Cancel this bet!" and hand my ticket back
- the bet gets entered and canceled

All of the above three seconds? I don't think so.

Alternative? Cancel a bet from an ADW? Nope. From a betting machine at the track? Nope.

So, the bettor and the teller must have been in cahoots together, with the ticket literally sitting in the machine, the teller's hand poised over the "cancel" button ... and as the "cancel" came through - was finished - three seconds after the break, the decision to cancel must have been made between break and 2 seconds.

Sure. Someone got one hell of an advantage there.

I doubt it happened that way. More than likely it was on an automatic telller machine. You punch in your ticket but don't log out, your horse breaks poor and you hit cancel. I'm sure people do it all the time and 99% of the time the pools close properly and it doesn't work. In this instance the pool stayed open long enough that the cancel worked.

[ArlJim78]

if i was given a 5 second window after the break, I could watch the break AND get in a cancellation. like many have mentioned, using youbet you have the cancellation loaded and ready so all you have to do is click confirm if you see your horse stumble or whatever.

you couldnt do this with a teller. although you could also do it at a sam machine like sniper said. you load in your ticket and it asks you to confirm the cancel, yes/no. 5 seconds is plenty of time at the break to know if your horse broke well or not.

i don't know what all the controversy is about on this. it would not be hard to do if this loophole existed somewhere. I have never seen it, my perception is that things shutdown pretty much at the break or slightly before during loading.

i cancel tickets quickly on youbet if my horse breaks through the front of the gate, and has to be reloaded.