Religious Fanatics and War

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Bold Ruler,
First of all, if you "graduate from one of the best universities", does it mean that you have a piece of parchment or a brain that is capable of thinking on its own?
Secondly, noone put a gun to their head to sign on the dotted line. They put themselves into that situation willingly. They either bought the propaganda or the "promises" of the recruiter. Either way, they're sweating their buns off in the 110 degree heat for making that decision. I didn't make it for them.
Third, I should be "ashamed"? Why? Because I speak the truth?
If you say I'm "dumb" for calling out the carnage that has been caused...
I don't think there's much more to talk about.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the United States put German leaders on
trial for going along with the decisions of their nazi leaders? Is Saddam Hussain on trial for exactly the same now?
I can't wait until Geo W shows up in the Hague to answer for his actions.

Shame on me??? I don't think so. I didn't make this tragedy...and it's not for me to answer for it.

You are ridiculous. By your reasoning anyone in the military is an idiot. Who do you think protects your country? George W is an idiot, but he isn't Saddam or Hitler. You are out of control with this liberal nonsense. You live in a little fantasy world where everyone is nice and there is no need for a military. War is never right, you need to talk things over, etc. War is terrible and never good, but it is sometimes necessary. Thank God George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Wilson, FDR and Truman realized that. Next you are going to tell me Truman was a murderer for dropping the bomb.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

You are ridiculous. By your reasoning anyone in the military is an idiot. Who do you think protects your country? George W is an idiot, but he isn't Saddam or Hitler. You are out of control with this liberal nonsense. You live in a little fantasy world where everyone is nice and there is no need for a military. War is never right, you need to talk things over, etc. War is terrible and never good, but it is sometimes necessary. Thank God George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Wilson, FDR and Truman. Next you are going to tell me Truman was a murderer for dropping the bomb.

You are ridiculous.
You live in a fantasy world where you put out "feel sorry for me bs, I'm sweating my a s s off in Iranian heat.
Explain please, how are the billions spent and the lives expended making this country SAFE??
Stay on topic. I don't want to discuss Washington, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, Truman. Only an idiot would not be able to see through your vain attempt to divert the discussion from current events. Nice try.
I'm out of control? I speak nonsense?
You are as insane as the position you are attempting to defend.

Look in the mirror.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

You are ridiculous.
You live in a fantasy world where you put out "feel sorry for me bs, I'm sweating my a s s off in Iranian heat.
Explain please, how are the billions spent and the lives expended making this country SAFE??
Stay on topic. I don't want to discuss Washington, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, Truman. Only an idiot would not be able to see through your vain attempt to divert the discussion from current events. Nice try.
I'm out of control? I speak nonsense?
You are as insane as the position you are attempting to defend.

Look in the mirror.

By your reasoning we would not even have a military if not for "idiots" that join. Iraq is not making this country safe. It is a ridiculous war. I have said that from the beginning. I despise Pat Buchanan, but I am an isolationist just like him. I don't see a need to fight unnecessary wars like Iraq, and I don't see a need to give money to other countries unless it is for humanitarian needs. The fact is the men and women in our military take orders and they do their job. Some right now are trying to help correct the mess Bush made. Personally I think we should cut and run, save the tax dollar and our soldiers lives, and let them have their civil war. It still doesn't mean they don't deserve praise for trying to do good while dealing with 115 degree heat.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

By your reasoning we would not even have a military if not for "idiots" that join. Iraq is not making this country safe. It is a ridiculous war. I have said that from the beginning. I despise Pat Buchanan, but I am an isolationist just like him. I don't see a need to fight unnecessary wars like Iraq, and I don't see a need to give money to other countries unless it is for humanitarian needs. The fact is the men and women in our military take orders and they do their job. Some right now are trying to help correct the mess Bush made. Personally I think we should cut and run, save the tax dollar and our soldiers lives, and let them have their civil war. It still doesn't mean they don't deserve praise for trying to do good while dealing with 115 degree heat.

Not much more that I can say.

1) I agree that the Iraq war is a ridiculous war. It is NOT making the United States safer.
2) Those that follow orders do so by choice. Precedent has been established.
3) Supplying humanitarian needs would go a long way to helping to restore credibility in the world. The United States can never return to an "isolationist" agenda. Our world presence has been established and reinforced...see Israel.
4) There is no such thing as "cut and run". Rove came up with those words and the "spin" has been played again and again. Like Himler, if the lie is repeated often enough, people will believe.... alas, most but not all.
5) War criminals are exactly that. Idiots are also if they follow the orders of war criminals.
6) The world is watching. The consequences will continue to be huge...
far more than "Homeland Security" can envision or anticipate. One way to prevent the likely response is to demonstrate that Americans don't wish to perpetuate the insanity.

[irishtrekker]

DTS, I have to respectfully disagree with some of what you've said, only because I was almost one of those Marines myself! The kids from my class ('99) signed up when our state was going through some economic problems. I'm from a farm town, and not a lot of people go to college after high school. Most come from military families, and that's where the kids go, too.

None of us had any idea in 1999 that we were going to go to war, but the sign-up contract is for six years with most branches of the service. I had good friends who never thought they'd actually fight wind up serving in both Afghanistan and Iraq. They are really psychologically messed up now, and I'm still counting my blessings for deciding to listen to my parents for once.

You're right that deep down, they should maybe have thought there might actually be a war some day...but we grew up at the end of the Cold War. To us, there were no bad guys left, naive as that may sound. Plus, when you're 18, a lot of things make sense that seem really stupid when a few more years have passed. I despise this war and have from the very beginning, but I have sympathy for soldiers who are stuck, and particularly for the kids who have families to support and can't just disobey orders and drop out. I also have tons of respect for people who don't enlist. I respect the soldiers who believe in what they're doing, because whether or not I agree with them, it's their lives on the line. Everyone makes their choices. But there are so many people I know who would give it all to take back that moment when they signed on the contract.

Just my two cents. Hope you don't mind.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by irishtrekker

DTS, I have to respectfully disagree with some of what you've said, only because I was almost one of those Marines myself! The kids from my class ('99) signed up when our state was going through some economic problems. I'm from a farm town, and not a lot of people go to college after high school. Most come from military families, and that's where the kids go, too.

None of us had any idea in 1999 that we were going to go to war, but the sign-up contract is for six years with most branches of the service. I had good friends who never thought they'd actually fight wind up serving in both Afghanistan and Iraq. They are really psychologically messed up now, and I'm still counting my blessings for deciding to listen to my parents for once.

You're right that deep down, they should maybe have thought there might actually be a war some day...but we grew up at the end of the Cold War. To us, there were no bad guys left, naive as that may sound. Plus, when you're 18, a lot of things make sense that seem really stupid when a few more years have passed. I despise this war and have from the very beginning, but I have sympathy for soldiers who are stuck, and particularly for the kids who have families to support and can't just disobey orders and drop out. I also have tons of respect for people who don't enlist. I respect the soldiers who believe in what they're doing, because whether or not I agree with them, it's their lives on the line. Everyone makes their choices. But there are so many people I know who would give it all to take back that moment when they signed on the contract.

Just my two cents. Hope you don't mind.

Irish,
Thanks for explaining where your thoughts come from.
Mine come from a family that has served, going back to my Great grandfathers in Civil war, my grandfather in WWI, my Dad in WWII.
All were officers.
Then, during Viet Nam, I took a stand. I had many arguements with quite a few people, including my father, and several friends that thought it was completely worthwhile. Obviously, we all know how that turned out.
Three of them came back in flag draped coffins for "proper burial".
What a waste! They never got the chance to have wives, children.
These were kids that grew up in "middle class" families, hoped to go to college on the GI bill when they got out...believed everything the recruiter threw at them. My friend, John, got himself ambushed in Laos trying to rescue parts from a blown up jeep. He lived. But he's never been the same since. Now he lives like a hermit on a mountainside, doesn't talk to very many. He once thought he was going to be an aireonautical (sp) engineer, and even went to Cal...St Luis Obismo to pursue that dream. No way...
his mental state couldn't handle it.

Excuse my rant, but I've seen far too many people destroyed by war, and their willingness to participate in it. Not much good comes out of it.
That's the truth.
Bad things happen when people believe in lies.
DTS

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Irish,
Thanks for explaining where your thoughts come from.
Mine come from a family that has served, going back to my Great grandfathers in Civil war, my grandfather in WWI, my Dad in WWII.
All were officers.
Then, during Viet Nam, I took a stand. I had many arguements with quite a few people, including my father, and several friends that thought it was completely worthwhile. Obviously, we all know how that turned out.
Three of them came back in flag draped coffins for "proper burial".
What a waste! They never got the chance to have wives, children.
These were kids that grew up in "middle class" families, hoped to go to college on the GI bill when they got out...believed everything the recruiter threw at them. My friend, John, got himself ambushed in Laos trying to rescue parts from a blown up jeep. He lived. But he's never been the same since. Now he lives like a hermit on a mountainside, doesn't talk to very many. He once thought he was going to be an aireonautical (sp) engineer, and even went to Cal...St Luis Obismo to pursue that dream. No way...
his mental state couldn't handle it.

Excuse my rant, but I've seen far too many people destroyed by war, and their willingness to participate in it. Not much good comes out of it.
That's the truth.
Bad things happen when people believe in lies.
DTS

Soldiers aren't believing in lies. They are just doing their job. Most would rather not be fighting, and signed up thinking there would never be a war, but they made a commitment and they honor it.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Soldiers aren't believing in lies. They are just doing their job. Most would rather not be fighting, and signed up thinking there would never be a war, but they made a commitment and they honor it.

Tell that to a widow in Falluja, or a mother in Beirut whose children (two sons) have died.
Yup, they're doing their job. Yup, they made a commitment.
I fail to see the "honor".
Lies are just that...LIES.
To continue to believe that somehow they'll come true (click your heels together three times Dorothy and turn around) will not make the truth happen.
Only when the curtain was torn back so that the "wizard" could be seen for the Oz he created exposed the reality.

I'll repeat, there is no honor in lies. No truth in deception. No security in creating fear.

The truth will stand on its own.

I'm sick of those that make up excuses for attempting to "spin" it otherwise.

[irishtrekker]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Irish,
Thanks for explaining where your thoughts come from.
Mine come from a family that has served, going back to my Great grandfathers in Civil war, my grandfather in WWI, my Dad in WWII.
All were officers.
Then, during Viet Nam, I took a stand. I had many arguements with quite a few people, including my father, and several friends that thought it was completely worthwhile. Obviously, we all know how that turned out.
Three of them came back in flag draped coffins for "proper burial".
What a waste! They never got the chance to have wives, children.
These were kids that grew up in "middle class" families, hoped to go to college on the GI bill when they got out...believed everything the recruiter threw at them. My friend, John, got himself ambushed in Laos trying to rescue parts from a blown up jeep. He lived. But he's never been the same since. Now he lives like a hermit on a mountainside, doesn't talk to very many. He once thought he was going to be an aireonautical (sp) engineer, and even went to Cal...St Luis Obismo to pursue that dream. No way...
his mental state couldn't handle it.

Excuse my rant, but I've seen far too many people destroyed by war, and their willingness to participate in it. Not much good comes out of it.
That's the truth.
Bad things happen when people believe in lies.
DTS

I don't disagree with you at all. It makes it worse for me knowing I have friends stuck in this who never wanted to be. Thanks for your thoughts. I'm sorry about John; I'm afraid one of the guys I know will be the same in a decade or two.

[Downthestretch55]

Irish,
I'm sorry about your friend.
Actually, I'm saddened by all the victims of war. There are far too many.
I wish no disrepect for those that chose to serve our country, and I hope they return safely.
I hope Danzig's son is safe and returns whole. Danzig explained his good motives.
I read that, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Unfortunately, my experience has been somewhat clouded. My dad had two purple hearts. He suffered from the wounds for the rest of his life. That doesn't include waking up in the middle of the night to deal with the after effects of malaria.
My brother served also. I didn't mention his involvement.
Lets just say, he participated for "noble reasons", as do many others.
He has "mental scars".

I'm very happy that "agent orange", something that claimed a few of my friends later, (horrible deaths and two birth defects later), is not currently used. It does trouble me that when the full effects of using depleted uranium's are evidenced in future years, the tragedies will continue.

Irish, please do all you can to inform those that see the "glory" of it all to realize what I've said above. "Nothing good comes from war."
And when they tell you how "necessary" it is...it means they've not seen the real consequences.
There are ways to deal with people that disagree with you besides attacking,
hating, and killing. Talking is a good place to begin.

Peace!