Top 25 3yo's 1987-2007

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

I'm not.

... and I'm not saying she was the greatest filly ever, but she was very good.

As an aside, please refer to Dynever as Ittsak.

There's absolutely nothing even close to proof that she was " very good. "

[Athletics005]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

There's absolutely nothing even close to proof that she was " very good. "

Horse Racing may be the only sport in the world where slight variations in wording can create such a argument. It seems to call a horse "great" in this sport, he/she must be an all-time superstar.

Compared to the average filly, she was more than very good. Compared to all time greats, she was well below average. Its just a matter of perspective.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Athletics005

Horse Racing may be the only sport in the world where slight variations in wording can create such a argument. It seems to call a horse "great" in this sport, he/she must be an all-time superstar.

As it should.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Athletics005

Horse Racing may be the only sport in the world where slight variations in wording can create such a argument. It seems to call a horse "great" in this sport, he/she must be an all-time superstar.

Isnt that the meaning of the word?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Athletics005

Compared to the average filly, she was more than very good. Compared to all time greats, she was well below average. Its just a matter of perspective.

So now we compare good horses to average horses to establish their quality?

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

There's absolutely nothing even close to proof that she was " very good. "

Okay.

I liked her in the Ontario Debutante and in the Mazarine BC.

I'll leave it at that.

Maybe you need to check out KRIM's "beautiful relaxing video" or something.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

There's absolutely nothing even close to proof that she was " very good. "

You're forgetting how truly awful that field was. That phony Adieu was 2nd choice at 4-1 or something... I thought Folklore was a layup (and yes... that was my only winner that day)

[philcski]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

It was an awful field. I bet a Buckram Oak horse whose name escapes me. I think she's still running.

Along the Sea?

[CSC]

Does the thought that some of the greatest horses on this list may have raced on performance enhancing drugs tarish their reputations? We've seen it in baseball, how does one compare Roger Clemons to Bob Gibson, or for that matter Ghostzapper to Secretariat?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

Does the thought that some of the greatest horses on this list may have raced on performance enhancing drugs tarish their reputations? We've seen it in baseball, how does one compare Roger Clemons to Bob Gibson, or for that matter Ghostzapper to Secretariat?

I think there is a greater chance that horses in the 70's were using something far more performance enhancing than horses in our era. While I wasnt around to see 1st hand in the 70's I have some pretty good sources.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think there is a greater chance that horses in the 70's were using something far more performance enhancing than horses in our era. While I wasnt around to see 1st hand in the 70's I have some pretty good sources.

That is the problem of comparing horses from different eras, we will never know for certain if horse A could beat horse B. I'm not sure whether a horse runs faster today or not means anything, all we know for certain is that they can only beat whomever they line up against. The rest is speculation. I raised the question when I think of horses trained by alleged substance users as in Frankel or Pletcher. Without that advantage would their horses run as fast? Not likely from this standpoint and just as in the case of Clemons the mere thought has tarnished his legacy forever.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

I really liked Knight's Templar. I knew that she had died, but I assumed that she had broken down in a race or of some other kind of injury.

I find this very hard to believe as a coincidence because of the rarity of cancer in horses, but there are carcinogenic substances in almost everything....the food you eat even...it depends on your genetic susceptibility to whether you develop cancer or not most of the time unless you are exposed to something incredibly bad.

There was most likely something at Belmont around those two stalls that caused the cancer, but I seriously doubt that management had much to do with it.

Oh well, we'll never really know....

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

That is the problem of comparing horses from different eras, we will never know for certain if horse A could beat horse B. I'm not sure whether a horse runs faster today or not means anything, all we know for certain is that they can only beat whomever they line up against. The rest is speculation. I raised the question when I think of horses trained by alleged substance users as in Frankel or Pletcher. Without that advantage would their horses run as fast? Not likely from this standpoint and just as in the case of Clemons the mere thought has tarnished his legacy forever.

The problem that I have is that the testing is so much better now that almost no positive now would be caught under the same test of earlier eras. There is a perception that all our horses now are under the influence of medications of some kind but the truth is that there were far more powerful substances being used in the 70's in particular than there are now. That is not to say that every trainer was using something but drugs like sublimaze and etorphine were used and they are far greater performance enhancers than any steroids or minute clembuterol traces found. Also there were many horses being treated with Lasix except for a long time it was not even published. The thought that horse racing is a dirtier game now simply ignores the reality of earlier eras.

Hey I had a link to a list of PPs for the derby winners from 93-03, so I decided to put the BSF idea to the test. I decided to take the best five BSFs from the sophmore year for those 11 Ky derby winners. You could take 2 races you might take 8, I dunno I took the best 5; I rounded to the nearest half I dont think there was much rounding error. If anyone has more BSF from other seasons I'd like to see them...

Here is the order:


Silver Charm 112 1/2
War Emblem 111
Funny Cide 109
Fu Peg 109
Real Quiet 108 1/2
Go for Gin 107 1/2
Thunder Gulch 107
Charismatic 105
Monarchos 105
Grindtone 101 (four races only)
Sea Hero 100

I dont know what overall conclusions to draw from all this but I will make a few comments about BSF in general as applied to this question:

1) THe avowed purpose of BSF was to make comparisons between horses shipping in from different tracks and those moving up and down in class ranks. At least that is my understanding. I have no doubt that they perform this mission quite well I have serious doubt whether they can perform the same mission when making subtle distinctions among the top horses running in different years.

2) Taking Funny Cide's best 2 races and comparing them to Smarty Jones is not really what the question was about since it is asking for the entire season not just 2 races. You have to consider all the races in the season and you might want to consider the strength of the particular fields they faced. Not sure BSF from one or two races really gets you there.

3) Measuring greatness has to mean more than just final times and/or BSF. Two fine examples of this have to do with Seattle Slews Jockey Club Gold and Personal Ensign in the BC distaff; when the factors that people talk about have to do with trip/adversity that these horses faced. Stuff that is not measured by a BSF or final time. BSF does measure surface in a sense, but Personal's Ensign's run in the slop was more than that.

4) To say that FUnny Cide had a better BSF than Smarty presents an insolvable Chicken/Egg problem. It could mean one of several things: That FUnnyCideis Underrated. That Smarty is OVerrated. Or that BSF are simply not well attuned for this purpose.

In lieu of more information, there is no answer to that question.

[blackthroatedwind]

Well, that puts this argument to rest.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Well, that puts this argument to rest.

The scary thing is for once she's making sense. I'd better stop drinking.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

The scary thing is for once she's making sense. I'd better stop drinking.

I guess I better start.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

I guess I better start.

Never a bad idea.

[The Bid]

Da Hoss

I think the surface was just being scratched with LITF. I think he would have been an all time great. Just did everything way too easy before getting ill.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

The scary thing is for once she's making sense. I'd better stop drinking.

it's that whole blind squirrel/acorn thing.