Manduro - best horse on the planet

[NoChanceToDance]

Look, it didn't write it. This list is compiled by some of the most knowledgable people around the world in this sport. If this is the list they have come up with, I'm prepared to go with what they say.

You always go on about your beloved HK horses, but truth is, most of them aren't as good as many european or american horses. Take Viva Pataca for instance. He was just a handicapper in England, yet he can win multiple Gr1 races in HK. The racing there is fantastic, don't get me wrong, it is probably the best racing package available and is certainly closing in on Europe and America, but at the moment, the horses aren't quite as good as the best available from Europe and America. Give it a few years and that will more than likely change.

These rankings are compiled by people from all around the world, so don't think it's done by people who don't like racing in the Far East.

You didn't rate Manduro, and that is your opinion, but he was the best horse on the planet last year, period.

EDIT: why does Echelon deserve to be higher? I agree about Ramonti, but as I say, the people that have done this know FAR more than either me or you or anyone else on here.

[my miss storm cat]

I've said nothing about Manduro being #1... don't you think if i had a problem with that I'd have said so?

Does he deserve it? Not sure. Was i a big fan (and am I a big Viva pataca fan?). No.

They're both awfully good though.

What the hell does HK have to do in the world to be considered as equal? What about Vengeance of Rain for God sake?

Yeah yeah, they know, they're experts BUT I think it's disgraceful that he was left off, that Miss Andretti is soooo far down, etc.

Hey, it's only my opinion though.

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

I've said nothing about Manduro being #1... don't you think if i had a problem with that I'd have said so?

Does he deserve it? Not sure. Was i a big fan (and am I a big Viva pataca fan?). No.

They're both awfully good though.

What the hell does HK have to do in the world to be considered as equal? What about Vengeance of Rain for God sake?

Yeah yeah, they know, they're experts BUT I think it's disgraceful that he was left off, that Miss Andretti is soooo far down, etc.

Hey, it's only my opinion though.

I'm just saying that in general, the horses in HK are just a step or two lower in class than the very best in Europe and America. The thing is that Vengeance of Rain and Viva Pataca have been head to head a few times right, with differing results. When Viva Pataca was over here he was only a class 2 handicapper. No where near capable of winning a Gr1. He has improved, but he still wouldn't trouble the best of what the rest of the world has (in my opinion). Vengeance Of Rain is probably rated through the form with VP. His sheema classic win was good, I have to agree, but it was a step above some of his other form.

HK and Japan are improving at a rate faster than most other countries. As I say, give them a few more years and it will be their horses close to the top of the tree.

It's also the fact that only a very small percentage of American and British horses go out there. So it's very hard to see who is best.

This post is probably as clear as mud, but I hope some of you understand it.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

HK and Japan are improving at a rate faster than most other countries. As I say, give them a few more years and it will be their horses close to the top of the tree.

Rule #273 of the HK horsie fan club rules state you must never lump them in with the JRA kids.

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

Rule #273 of the HK horsie fan club rules state you must never lump them in with the JRA kids.

Mr dear, that is rule #2730

You've known me long enough now to realise that I feel rules are there to be broken

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

Mr dear, that is rule #2730

Oh I thought that was the Wong rule... never bet a horse with Wong in his name cause chances are he won't go into the gate without 5 minutes of drama and insanity.

Need to check the book now.....

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

Oh I thought that was the Wong rule... never bet a horse with Wong in his name cause chances are he won't go into the gate without 5 minutes of drama and insanity.

Need to check the book now.....

Rule #1 is still the same, right?

Never bet a horse who Gallant Bloom has played.





(I'm ready for the backlash, don't worry....... I need to say something outlandish for her to speak to me)

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

Look, it didn't write it. This list is compiled by some of the most knowledgable people around the world in this sport. If this is the list they have come up with, I'm prepared to go with what they say.

You always go on about your beloved HK horses, but truth is, most of them aren't as good as many european or american horses. Take Viva Pataca for instance. He was just a handicapper in England, yet he can win multiple Gr1 races in HK. The racing there is fantastic, don't get me wrong, it is probably the best racing package available and is certainly closing in on Europe and America, but at the moment, the horses aren't quite as good as the best available from Europe and America. Give it a few years and that will more than likely change.

These rankings are compiled by people from all around the world, so don't think it's done by people who don't like racing in the Far East.

You didn't rate Manduro, and that is your opinion, but he was the best horse on the planet last year, period.

EDIT: why does Echelon deserve to be higher? I agree about Ramonti, but as I say, the people that have done this know FAR more than either me or you or anyone else on here.

I couldn't agree more. Don't let emotion get in the way of understanding truth. The racing in the Far East is improving and as you say, in time, it will probably be right on par with the best in the world. But that time is not yet and because of the short time they've been at it, it couldn't be expected that they are on par with the best in the world at this point.

As for your position that these people know far more than you do and you are prepared to accept their rankings, I couldn't disagree more. What makes them a better judge of talent than you? It would be different if they saw the races and you didn't but since you can see the races just as they can, their opinion is no more valid than yours is. I don't know how long you have been a racing fan but I've been one for just over 20 years. Why should I accept their opinions as the facts if my eyes and experience tell me something else?

[brockguy]

World Champion 2003 - US Bred (Hawk Wing)
World Champion 2004 - US Bred (Ghostzapper)
World Champion 2005 - Irish Bred (Hurricane Run)
World Champion 2006 - Argentinian Bred (Invasor)
World Champion 2007 - German Bred (Monsun)

World Champion 2008 - ???

[Exterminator]

Originally Posted by brockguy

World Champion 2003 - US Bred (Hawk Wing)
World Champion 2004 - US Bred (Ghostzapper)
World Champion 2005 - Irish Bred (Hurricane Run)
World Champion 2006 - Argentinian Bred (Invasor)
World Champion 2007 - German Bred (Monsun)

World Champion 2008 - ???

Thanks for that.

[Exterminator]

Who was the Japanese filly that won so huge in CA, I think, and then was retired right after a year or two back? Does anyone remember?

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by Exterminator

Who was the Japanese filly that won so huge in CA, I think, and then was retired right after a year or two back? Does anyone remember?

Cesario.

[Exterminator]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

Cesario.

That's the one. Thank you. She was awesome.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I couldn't agree more. Don't let emotion get in the way of understanding truth. The racing in the Far East is improving and as you say, in time, it will probably be right on par with the best in the world. But that time is not yet and because of the short time they've been at it, it couldn't be expected that they are on par with the best in the world at this point.

As for your position that these people know far more than you do and you are prepared to accept their rankings, I couldn't disagree more. What makes them a better judge of talent than you? It would be different if they saw the races and you didn't but since you can see the races just as they can, their opinion is no more valid than yours is. I don't know how long you have been a racing fan but I've been one for just over 20 years. Why should I accept their opinions as the facts if my eyes and experience tell me something else?

I completely agree with the 2nd part.

The first.....if that time is not yet, as you say, how will anyone know when that time comes? Isn't there a chance it's now but too little people are paying attention?

Emotion influences my truth, sure, but what bothers me a little are that there are obvious standouts who are lumped in a package labled "far East horses". I don't know if this makes sense.

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

I completely agree with the 2nd part.

The first.....if that time is not yet, as you say, how will anyone know when that time comes? Isn't there a chance it's now but too little people are paying attention?

Emotion influences my truth, sure, but what bothers me a little are that there are obvious standouts who are lumped in a package labled "far East horses". I don't know if this makes sense.

Believe me, you'll know when that time comes. As KG said, Hong Kong and Japan haven't been in this game as long as some of the mjor racing countries. You'll see a shift when horses from both Hong Kong and Japan start to ship over here and to America to win some of the Gr races.

Until then, we know they are slightly behind.

It isn't now, and believe me, people are certainly paying attention. A few years ago I wouldn't have even bothered looking at this thread, but the last couple of years I've realised that the racing in Hong Kong and Japan is moving so quickly, that it won't be long until they are very close to a par with Britain, Ireland and America.

Viva Pataca probably wouldn't win a Grou/grade one race in Britain, Ireland or America. It's just like Helene Mascot, he wasn't top class over here, but he's good enough to win a Gr1 on his first start in HK and over a trip short of his best. I think this shows everyone that they aren't quite at the level we have here and you have in America.

Give it three or four years, and I think they will be there. New stallions, better breeding programmes. It all takes time.

Please don't read this as a HK or a Japan throw back. They are making many people sit up and watch now. They know they can reach the same heights as other nations, and as long as they keep that belief, they will get there sooner rather than later.

[brockguy]

i dont think Japan and HK should be banded together. Japan has showed on many occasions abroad that they ARE on a par with the top racing nations in Europe, Dubai and Australia. Hong Kong has done it but to a lesser extent..

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by brockguy

i dont think Japan and HK should be banded together. Japan has showed on many occasions abroad that they ARE on a par with the top racing nations in Europe, Dubai and Australia. Hong Kong has done it but to a lesser extent..

No they shouldn't and I really shouldn't band them together.

I don't agree that Japan are on a par. Not yet, anyway. Deep Impact was one of the best horses they have had, but when it came to trying to beat the best Europe had to offer, he couldn't quite do it.

Both countries will soon be on a par, and if they keep progressing at this rate, they will soon be at the top.

I think it's great.

Would love to see more horses come over here from Hong Kong and Japan.

[brockguy]

well in 2006, there wasnt a horse in Europe better than Deep Impact according to the world rankings. Yes he lost in the Arc, but I certainly believe that he wasnt at his best for a number of reasons.

Japan showed when they came over with Agnes World and El Condor Pasa that they meant business and were among the elite. It took a phenomenal performance from Montjeu to deny ECP an unreal win in the Arc.

[my miss storm cat]

This horse is not on par, so I'll use him as an example.

Where were you in 2001?

This horse was having his first race.

June 22nd, Newmarket, Jamie Spencer up, a field of 11.

He won, won the next and the following 6 races was 2nd twice and 3rd twice.

Went to Hong Kong where he got a new name, raced a few times going off at 99/1, and in his first Group 1 outing beat the legendary Cape of Good Hope.

No need to go in with every minute detail BUT season after season, his rating went up, up, up.

This horse is not on par.

He defeated and dethroned his illustrious stable-mate Silent Witness (talk about shock and awe), he travelled (Tokyo in '05 where he was 4th, 5th in the Dubai Duty Free in 2006, he won the Grade 1 Yasuda Kinen in 2006 and was 3rd in the Dubai World Cup, his first time on dirt, last year).

... and through all this? Injuries and viruses.

He's nine years old now with no retirement plans in sight.

Bullish Luck is not on par.

There are quite a few like him... Group 1 horses, aging now but as game and determined as ever.

http://www.hkjc.com/english/racing/h...&Option=1#htop

It's not that I'm offended that others don't share my view... I'm not.

It's more that it strikes me as a little sad that you can have a three-time Melbourne Cup winner like Makybe Diva or a horse like Vengeance of Rain and they're still treated as if they're not equal somehow. That i don't get, never will, but that's life.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

EDIT: why does Echelon deserve to be higher?

The Matron Stakes, the Celebration Mile.....

She's more deserving than some (or at least i think so).