The Pats

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Any NFL team that holds a pair of untested backup QB's is about going to have their starting qb be their teams most valuable player if they are halfway decent. The Pats #2 QB, he was a backup his ENTIRE college career! I believe his last start came in high school.

You could plug in a half dozen NFL QB's into that offense and they will put up Brady's numbers. You can't plug in a another NFL reciever to replace Moss, and expect not just Brady, but any NFL qb to put up those numbers.

While both have great numbers in the postseason, Brady has won Super Bowls without Moss - and Moss hasn't won them without Brady - However, Moss has been on MANY better offenses than Brady has.

Look, people forget how downright pathetic some of those Minnesota Vikings defenses were in the Moss era in Minnesota. No team is winning a championship with truly the leauges worst defense year in and year out.

In Minny they paid Moss A lot of money, they paid his Moss Made fraud QB Culpepper A LOT of money, and they were almost always the team most under the cap and spending the least money. They had a defense only the Tampa Bay Devil Rays could envy.

Brady is very under-paid, NE spends money, and spends it smart - and they always have had a very tough defense.

Once the Pats get a lead, Moss is just going through the motions effort wise right now - and he has been for much of the season.

He's had hamstring injuries four years in a row - though, his hammy injury this year came before the season and not during it.

I believe he's a different player off of rest - look at week 1 against the Jets when he played sparingly and put up monster numbers. Look at his 4 first half TD receptions against Buffalo off of the bye week.

I know a lot of the talking heads are saying he might be much less effective in the snow, but he had that 3 TD performance in the snow when he won the MAC Championship at Marshall...when everyone said the slow field would neutralize him.

A full sixty minutes of a hungry and healthy Randy Moss...even a little older and slower now....if one of those backups can even remotely play I think this team would win a Super Bowl without Brady....just as they would still be the favorite to do without Moss.

[SentToStud]

I remember Moss's last playoff game agaisnt Philly (the game after he mooned the GB crowd) when Culpepper threw for a ton and Moss caught three for 50 yards with a bunch of drops.

Welker is far more valuable than Moss.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

I remember Moss's last playoff game agaisnt Philly (the game after he mooned the GB crowd)

Yes - he was playing with a bad hammy - Philly had three of their four starters in the secondary selected to the Pro Bowl that year - and Johnson (who has always called great games against Moss) had his gameplan focused around Moss.

That is truly an all-time dumb example. The week before, Moss was hobbling around the field the entire game- and still caught two big TD passes in a road playoff win over Green Bay at Lambeau.

As for Welker being more valuable - prior to this year - he had a grand total of ONE career NFL touchdown catch...and the Dolphins didn't let him go because it would have taken a lot of money to sign him ... and certainly not because he was a precieved cancer.

Welker has been "covered" by #3 corners, or safeties, or linebackers for much of the year. He's doing a great job of exploiting those mismatches - but he's no superstar.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Welker is far more valuable than Moss.

At what? Reading and writing?

He is more valuable at being short as well.
Which I also excel at.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

At what? Reading and writing?

Knock his intellect all you want - but keep in mind - he went to a very dumpy high school in the chemical valley region of West Virginia.

He's uncommonly smart for a person from that area.

As an example, his highschool basketball teammate at DuPont was none other than "white chocolate" Jason Williams. There's a real genius for ya!

Here's a clip of them playing B-Ball together:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJruS...eature=related

It shouldn't come as a surprise that Moss was the star of that high school basketball team. He was a two time West Virgina state basketball player of the year, while on the same team as a future NBA rookie of the year runner-up. He also won the McDonalds slam dunk competion.

Further, according to stuff I've read and heard, there were multiple MLB scouts who had said that they fealt Moss was the best teenage centerfielder they had ever seen. Some thought baseball would be his best sport.

Not that being an elite prospect at football, baseball, and basketball was enough - he was also a brilliantly fast record setting sprinter.

It had to be Lou Holtz's sickest day as a college coach when Notre Dame revoked his scholarship offer after an infamous high school fight he got in. Notre Dame would have been a machine with him.

He only caught 54 TD's in just two college seasons at Marshall.

* His team was 13-0 his freshman season, and his 28 TD receptions tied Jerry Rice's 1-AA record for TD's in a season. He had 9 catches for 220 yards and 4 TD's in that years D-1AA national title game.

* His sophomore year, Marshall made the jump to D-1, his team went 11-3 and he was a Heisman finalist inspite of almost never playing on TV. He caught 3 TD's in a MAC championship win - and had 173 recieving yards against Tommy Tubberville's Ole Miss team in the Motor City Bowl.

He also averaged 34.6 yards per kick return - and as of last year - the award for the nations best kick returner is named the Randy Moss award.

It is beyond remarkable how the most can't miss athlete in sports history wasn't drafted until the 21st pick!

I should probably stop - as everyone finds my man crush on Moss beyond sickening.

[docicu3]

Drugs when Randy left Marshall was he not thought of as "most likely to spend the offseason in a correctional facility".

The reason he fell to the 21'st pick was that Randy's graduation was from the well known "Lawerence Phillips Charm School" that year....he scared the hell out of GM's who considered him higher....

Having said that the Pats have titrated his medication flawlessly all season without incident. 20 mgs of BB's mystery potion each night before bed and you have a quiet productive all pro who has learned to be accepting of structure and purpose. Randy seems to actually care about winning a Super Bowl the one thing you can't buy with "straight cash homie".

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Further, according to stuff I've read and heard, there were multiple MLB scouts who had said that they fealt Moss was the best teenage centerfielder they had ever seen. Some thought baseball would be his best sport.

You do realize how many "can't miss" baseball prospects don't pan out, right? Drew Henson managed to fail as a can't miss baseball and football prospect. Very impressive.

Not bashing Moss but what some MLB scouts have to say is like using something PG1985 said to support an argument.

[JJP]

I remember that 1998 draft. There were THOUGHT to be 4 can't misses: Peyton Manning, Ryan Leaf, Peter Bouleware and Moss. OK, we know now the "experts were 100% wrong on Leaf. But Moss was thought to be top 4. As a Bears fan, who drafted 4th, I thought we had a shot at getting Moss. Instead we took Penn St RB Curtis Enis, who is now pumping gas in Libertyville. 9 years later, Moss is putting up 20 plus TDs. I don't know if the Bears organization would've been able to handle Moss early in his career. Maybe Minny was the right spot for him. But when you see high picks spent on the likes of Enis, Rashan Salaam and Cade McNown, it makes one angry knowing they passed on Moss.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

You could plug in a half dozen NFL QB's into that offense and they will put up Brady's numbers. You can't plug in a another NFL reciever to replace Moss, and expect not just Brady, but any NFL qb to put up those numbers.

There is only one other QB who would put up those numbers in Brady's place. I hear all the things about having lots of time and while that is true the guy has made like 6 bad throws all year. He has been unbelievable.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There is only one other QB who would put up those numbers in Brady's place.

I think you're wrong about that.

Here are the fraud that is known as Duante Culpepper's stats from Randy's last season in Minnesota compared to Brady's this year:

Duante: 379-for-548 (69.2% completions) 4,717 yards 39TD's 11 INT's
Brady: 366-for-536 (68.3% completions) 4,450 yards 48TD's 8 INT's

Moss caught 17 TD's with Duante that year - despite being slowed down by a hammy injury near the end of the season. He caught 21 TD's with Brady so far this year.

The Vikings defense that year would have to rate as the all-time worst defensive unit to ever be on a team that won a playoff game.

Culpepper threw just six TD's against 12 INT's and 3 lost fumbles (15 combined turnovers) in his first six games the next season - before suffering a season ending injury. It was almost as if he had to learn to play the qb position over again from scratch! That's how drastic the defenses changed.

Culpepper threw for almost 4K yards and 33 TD's in his rookie season. His true rookie season was when he lossed Moss.

A 35-year-old Randall Cunningham came out of retirement - and off of the bench - to lead the '98 Vikings to a 15-1 season and break the record for most points in a season (a record which NE will break this week) RC's qb rating was 108 - which reasonably compares to the 117.2 of Brady this year.

Jeff George went to the Pro Bowl and won a playoff game with Moss, guys like Gus Ferrotte and Todd Beauman had been named NFC offensive player of the week at the QB position for Minnesota.

I know Randy's stats showed a big decline his two years in Oakland, but people forget that he had 466 recieving yards after his first four games with the Raiders (Kerry Collins at qb) In his 5th game in Oakland, he injured his hammy on a deep ball in the 1st quarter. Left the game, and it was a year and three quarters of no production from him at that point.

He hobbled around the rest of '05 - and cashed in his chips for the '06 season.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I think you're wrong about that.

Here are the fraud that is known as Duante Culpepper's stats from Randy's last season in Minnesota compared to Brady's this year:

Duante: 379-for-548 (69.2% completions) 4,717 yards 39TD's 11 INT's
Brady: 366-for-536 (68.3% completions) 4,450 yards 48TD's 8 INT's

Moss caught 17 TD's with Duante that year - despite being slowed down by a hammy injury near the end of the season. He caught 21 TD's with Brady so far this year.

The Vikings defense that year would have to rate as the all-time worst defensive unit to ever be on a team that won a playoff game.

Culpepper threw just six TD's against 12 INT's and 3 lost fumbles (15 combined turnovers) in his first six games the next season - before suffering a season ending injury. It was almost as if he had to learn to play the qb position over again from scratch! That's how drastic the defenses changed.

Culpepper threw for almost 4K yards and 33 TD's in his rookie season. His true rookie season was when he lossed Moss.

A 35-year-old Randall Cunningham came out of retirement - and off of the bench - to lead the '98 Vikings to a 15-1 season and break the record for most points in a season (a record which NE will break this week) RC's qb rating was 108 - which reasonably compares to the 117.2 of Brady this year.

Jeff George went to the Pro Bowl and won a playoff game with Moss, guys like Gus Ferrotte and Todd Beauman had been named NFC offensive player of the week at the QB position for Minnesota.

I know Randy's stats showed a big decline his two years in Oakland, but people forget that he had 466 recieving yards after his first four games with the Raiders (Kerry Collins at qb) In his 5th game in Oakland, he injured his hammy on a deep ball in the 1st quarter. Left the game, and it was a year and three quarters of no production from him at that point.

He hobbled around the rest of '05 - and cashed in his chips for the '06 season.

Outside of P. Manning, who else is there that would play as effectively as Brady has? Favre? No way, makes too many bad throws. Romo? Yeah right. Palmer? please. Ben? Not accurate enough. Cleo Lemon? Maybe.

[JJP]

I think the real key is stuff that doesn't show up in the stat books: the fear opposing defensive coordinators have of Moss. Welker is a nice complimentary player but he's not the guy constantly drawing double teams. He's not forcing teams into cover 2s to open up things for Maroney when they stay on the ground. I think there's only a handful of players who really scare DCs: Moss, TO, LT, Adrian Peterson (the Vikings one, not the Bears). Those guys make everyone else around them better.