Three New BC Races

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Because I think those horses that have any kind of speed will be in the Classic or the Dirt Mile and the Marathon will be left with all of the horses that are devoid of any kind of speed. The Belmont is won by horses with speed because they are better than the other horses and there isn't another choice of race for them on that same day. On BC day, there will be other races.

You don't honestly think their will be real horses considering those three races as options....do you? The Marathon will be completely comprised by horses that were never even considered for the Mile or Classic.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You don't honestly think their will be real horses considering those three races as options....do you? The Marathon will be completely comprised by horses that were never even considered for the Mile or Classic.

Guess that puts a crimp in the "short fields will result" argument.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Riot

Guess that puts a crimp in the "short fields will result" argument.

That argument is settled....or perhaps you didn't see the fields for the races this year.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

That argument is settled....or perhaps you didn't see the fields for the races this year.

This is a pretty good point that seems to have somehow been overlooked in this strange thread.
The addition of 3 new races this year ALREADY affected the field size of the existing races. Some people in this thread seem to be saying that something won't happen....that has already happened.
It seems odd to me.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by miraja2

This is a pretty good point that seems to have somehow been overlooked in this strange thread.
The addition of 3 new races this year ALREADY affected the field size of the existing races. Some people in this thread seem to be saying that something won't happen....that has already happened.
It seems odd to me.

If you guys keep saying that it won't make it true. I'm yet to hear a good example of a horse that would have run on Saturday if there were no Friday races and La Traviata is the only one that I can think of. There is no way they would have run Dream Rush at 6 furlongs against the boys. The Cigar Mile was hurt far more by the Friday races losing both Corinthian and Discreet Cat than any of the Saturday races were hurt. The only even possible I can think of is Xchanger who surely would have gone in the Jerome long before the Classic if the DC Dirt Mile didn't exist.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

If you guys keep saying that it won't make it true. I'm yet to hear a good example of a horse that would have run on Saturday if there were no Friday races and La Traviata is the only one that I can think of. There is no way they would have run Dream Rush at 6 furlongs against the boys. The Cigar Mile was hurt far more by the Friday races losing both Corinthian and Discreet Cat than any of the Saturday races were hurt. The only even possible I can think of is Xchanger who surely would have gone in the Jerome long before the Classic if the DC Dirt Mile didn't exist.

From Friday, the following might have run on Saturday: Corinthian, Discreet Cat, Wanderin Boy, Lewis Michael, Gottcha Gold, Dream Rush, The Leopard and La Traviata. Many of these could have certainly changed the dynamics of the races they would have run in.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

If you guys keep saying that it won't make it true. I'm yet to hear a good example of a horse that would have run on Saturday if there were no Friday races and La Traviata is the only one that I can think of. There is no way they would have run Dream Rush at 6 furlongs against the boys. The Cigar Mile was hurt far more by the Friday races losing both Corinthian and Discreet Cat than any of the Saturday races were hurt. The only even possible I can think of is Xchanger who surely would have gone in the Jerome long before the Classic if the DC Dirt Mile didn't exist.

That strikes me as a strange sentence. You say that you have yet to hear a good example.....and then you name one.
It is also one (of the several) that have already been named on this thread (see response #81), so if you haven't seen an example, you simply haven't been reading very carefully.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by miraja2

That strikes me as a strange sentence. You say that you have yet to hear a good example.....and then you name one.
It is also one (of the several) that have already been named on this thread (see response #81), so if you haven't seen an example, you simply haven't been reading very carefully.

The three horses named were La Traviata, Dream Rush, and Diamond Stripes.

Diamond Stripes ran in the Classic, I don't see why his name was brought up at all.

La Traviata, a 3-year-old filly with only 3 starts under her belt, who didn't even start racing until June, was supposed to run in October against the all-ages boys in the Sprint? A three-start filly, with one Grade 3 race under her belt, against older males in a Grade 1 race? She was considered for the Sprint, but was indeed pulled in favor of Friday. Thank goodness. Did that defection ruin the running of the Sprint? Doubtful.

Dream Rush, top of her division and also a three-year-old, was also supposed to run against the all-ages boys in the Sprint? Her owners never considered it. She wouldn't have been there at all if Friday's races didn't exist.

I think it a far better race, to see two promising three-year-old filly sprinters meet and run against each other, than to see them crushed by running against older males. Enough that a three-year-old is thrown in a race open to olders of her sex.

Not "good examples of how Friday race availability has ruined the Saturday entries and diluted the quality of the racing" in my book.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You don't honestly think their will be real horses considering those three races as options....do you? The Marathon will be completely comprised by horses that were never even considered for the Mile or Classic.

As I've said a few times already, I don't expect any horses of quality to be in the Marathon anytime soon. I expect it to be barely above the level of an upper level claiming race. Even that may be too much to expect early on. I know it's going to be brutal to watch a bunch of slow horses staggering home down the stretch at the end of 12f. I think that the series of races they have during the year will also be horrible races. But I do think that it's a good idea and as I said, one side had to make the first move. The breeders wouldn't and I can't blame them. Maybe now, with the series and the BC race on the schedule, there is at least a little bit of incentive to try to breed horses for those kinds of races. The turning of the tide will be slow and it's never going to get back to the way it was. But at least it's a start and while maybe I'm being overly optomistic and maybe a bit naive, I think it's a move in the right direction. Time will tell. I don't think this race will take anything away from the Classic and I don't share the same concerns that you and some others have about naming the winners of every race as champions. We know better. I wouldn't care if they made the race an immediate grade one race. We know better.

[blackthroatedwind]

Calling the 1 1/2 mile race a BC race drags down every other race.

But what do I know.....I stopped watching the NFL in 1987 when they let the scab teams take the field for five games.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Calling the 1 1/2 mile race a BC race drags down every other race.

But what do I know.....I stopped watching the NFL in 1987 when they let the scab teams take the field for five games.

I understand that sentiment. It's the same one I have with calling prep races grade ones. IMO, if the Santa Anita Derby, the Florida Derby, the Wood and the Blue Grass are preps for the Kentucky Derby, making them the same grade as the main event does the Kentucky Derby an injustice. I believe the graded stakes committee decided that next year, not only will they keep the Arkansas Derby as a grade two but they also upgraded the Rebel to grade two status. That's very stupid to me. But I don't get worked up over it either way. They could make them all grade ones or make them all grade nines. They can call the new races BC races or they could call them whatever they want. I judge the races by what I think is the quality of the field and won't let a grade or title bother me.

[blackthroatedwind]

I agree with you about the Derby preps and their graded status. However, I can also understand the other side of the argument. There are pros and cons and the people that spend a great deal of money for horses have more than a right to a say in this matter. However, there is something highly illogical about TC preps being Graded the same as the actual TC races. However, they don't carry the same weight, or anything close, in terms of commanding breeding attention.

I don't care a great deal either about the whole thing but I do find the entire system greatly flawed. I wish there was a way to objectively grade all races at the end of the year, after they have been run, and after we have seen what kinds of horses actually comprised the fields. One of the main problems, of course, with this is the same people with questionable judgement, and personal agendas, would be doing the post race rating as well. Thus, all in all, I guess I would have to agree that it just doesn't matter or isn't really worth wasting much time over. However, wasting my time is my full time job.

[whodey17]

I wonder if Evening Attire will try the 1 1/2 miles race.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I agree with you about the Derby preps and their graded status. However, I can also understand the other side of the argument. There are pros and cons and the people that spend a great deal of money for horses have more than a right to a say in this matter. However, there is something highly illogical about TC preps being Graded the same as the actual TC races. However, they don't carry the same weight, or anything close, in terms of commanding breeding attention.

I don't care a great deal either about the whole thing but I do find the entire system greatly flawed. I wish there was a way to objectively grade all races at the end of the year, after they have been run, and after we have seen what kinds of horses actually comprised the fields. One of the main problems, of course, with this is the same people with questionable judgement, and personal agendas, would be doing the post race rating as well. Thus, all in all, I guess I would have to agree that it just doesn't matter or isn't really worth wasting much time over. However, wasting my time is my full time job.

I brought up the idea of grading races at the end of the year a long time ago to a semi-prominent trainer on the Southern Cal circuit. He said that he thought it was a good idea but that one of the main problems we'd have if we did that was that if we thought the problem of top horses ducking each other was already a problem, it would become even moreso by grading races after. Take the situation in 2003. As much as I wanted to condemn Mineshaft's being selected for HOY because he beat NOBODY and the only time he faces another horse that was considered one of the top 6-7 older males (Perfect Drift), he lost, I had to at least acknowledge that his people put him in the races that were considered the best races during the second half of the year. That nobody chose to face him in those races wasn't their fault. Now, if there was no grading until the end of the year, the connections of several different horses could pick and choose their spots and stay away from other top horses and make the claim that the race they went in was the best race and the others ducked them. At least by knowing ahead of time what the grades are, we know which races are supposed to be the best ones and where the best horses are supposed to go.

[blackthroatedwind]

That's a very valid point.

It's a good thing I bet most of my money in maiden races and turf races.