Three New BC Races

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by sumitas

I'd like to see Belmont bring back the 12F allowance carded on every Belmont day up until a few years ago. Sounds good to make the Jockey Club Gold Cup at least 12 F.

Since you don't know why this race was run I will tell you......it was run at the request of the TV Network covering the Belmont so that they could test their equipment on a race comparable to the Belmont before that race was run.

Why, then, did NYRA stop running it? Because it barely fills, at best, and it is important on big days to run races with full fields from the obvious handle perspective.

[blackthroatedwind]

The real reason the BC is adding these races is to attempt to increase handle and therefore revenue.

Noble intentions.....don't ya think?

[sumitas]

The JCGC , having been shortened to the more common distance of 1¼ miles in 1990, has reduced its distinctiveness.

The race was once run (1976 through 1989) at 1½ miles, but from 1921 through 1975 it was two miles long.

Maybe a return to the 2 mile distance or possibly a 1 5/8 will bring back some of the glamour of this great race.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by sumitas

The JCGC , having been shortened to the more common distance of 1¼ miles in 1990, has reduced its distinctiveness.

The race was once run (1976 through 1989) at 1½ miles, but from 1921 through 1975 it was two miles long.

Maybe a return to the 2 mile distance or possibly a 1 5/8 will bring back some of the glamour of this great race.

When Malibu Moonshine wins it?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

When Malibu Moonshine wins it?

Lest we forget that this also gives the owners extra incentive to keep Student Council in training next year.

It's like they wrote the race just for him.

The BC should take over concessions and serve paint chips. I think they'd go over big.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I actually think that a dirt race at 12f would be a good thing. I know that for the first few years, it's going to be very hard to watch because we simply don't have that many horses that can run well at that distance anymore. But I think that if there is a BC race for them and if there were to be a series in place throughout the year, say 6-8 12f races with purses of $500k or more in each and a points bonus attatched to it, in a few years, there would be horses to fill these races. Today, there is no incentive to breed these kinds of horses because the races for them don't exist. But create a market for them and I think that more breeders would look to fill it.

Looks like they are headed towards doing this. I think a bunch of people are looking only at the short term here and thinking about how ugly this race will be and what it's going to be like for the first few years. It's going to be brutal, no doubt about it. I do think, however, that over the coming years, it's going to start getting better. I remember when the JCGC was a 12f race and I know it was a 16f race for a long time before that. I know that races like the Brooklyn and the Woodward used to be run at 12f also. I remember people complaining when the JCGC was reduced to 10f and when the Vosburgh was reduced to 6.5f then to 6f. I hear the uproar when people like myself suggest that the TC races be reduced in distance. People keep saying that we are giving in to the breeders and making the horses into an even less sturdy breed. I believe that is true. But I kind of feel like it's contradictory to complain about the "woosification" of the horses then complain again when someone is at least trying to turn it around. I also believe that the BC is doing a good thing here in trying to turn that around. The first move had to be made by someone. The breeders weren't going to do it. They didn't have any incentive at all to breed horses to run longer distances when there were no races to run them. Now, they will have some spots so now there will be at least a little incentive. I applaud the BC for making the first move here. They've created a market for breeders to fill. But it's going to take time. I don't think anyone that is into the game and knows what's really going on is going to mistake the horses that win this race as true champions. We know it's going to be won for a while by the plodders that have no speed and can't compete with others at normal distances. Horses like Jazil, for instance. For a person like me, one who's usually looking at the negative side of the sport and trying to look for ideas that could make it better, I think this is a step in the right direction. A baby step but a step nonetheless.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Looks like they are headed towards doing this. I think a bunch of people are looking only at the short term here and thinking about how ugly this race will be and what it's going to be like for the first few years. It's going to be brutal, no doubt about it. I do think, however, that over the coming years, it's going to start getting better. I remember when the JCGC was a 12f race and I know it was a 16f race for a long time before that. I know that races like the Brooklyn and the Woodward used to be run at 12f also. I remember people complaining when the JCGC was reduced to 10f and when the Vosburgh was reduced to 6.5f then to 6f. I hear the uproar when people like myself suggest that the TC races be reduced in distance. People keep saying that we are giving in to the breeders and making the horses into an even less sturdy breed. I believe that is true. But I kind of feel like it's contradictory to complain about the "woosification" of the horses then complain again when someone is at least trying to turn it around. I also believe that the BC is doing a good thing here in trying to turn that around. The first move had to be made by someone. The breeders weren't going to do it. They didn't have any incentive at all to breed horses to run longer distances when there were no races to run them. Now, they will have some spots so now there will be at least a little incentive. I applaud the BC for making the first move here. They've created a market for breeders to fill. But it's going to take time. I don't think anyone that is into the game and knows what's really going on is going to mistake the horses that win this race as true champions. We know it's going to be won for a while by the plodders that have no speed and can't compete with others at normal distances. Horses like Jazil, for instance. For a person like me, one who's usually looking at the negative side of the sport and trying to look for ideas that could make it better, I think this is a step in the right direction. A baby step but a step nonetheless.

Don't you think it's hard enough to get quality mile and a quarter races with Million dollar purses?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Don't you think it's hard enough to get quality mile and a quarter races with Million dollar purses?

I do. And as I said, this new race is not going to be a quality race for at least a few years. The races they have during the year to support it will also suck. But I think they have to start somewhere. If you are a breeder, you had absolutely no incentive to even think about breeding horses that could run beyond 10f. Now, they do. It's going to take a while but I am confident that in a few years, maybe it takes five or more, this race won't be so bad. I try not to only focus on the short term when I think about racing.

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Looks like they are headed towards doing this. I think a bunch of people are looking only at the short term here and thinking about how ugly this race will be and what it's going to be like for the first few years. It's going to be brutal, no doubt about it. I do think, however, that over the coming years, it's going to start getting better. I remember when the JCGC was a 12f race and I know it was a 16f race for a long time before that. I know that races like the Brooklyn and the Woodward used to be run at 12f also. I remember people complaining when the JCGC was reduced to 10f and when the Vosburgh was reduced to 6.5f then to 6f. I hear the uproar when people like myself suggest that the TC races be reduced in distance. People keep saying that we are giving in to the breeders and making the horses into an even less sturdy breed. I believe that is true. But I kind of feel like it's contradictory to complain about the "woosification" of the horses then complain again when someone is at least trying to turn it around. I also believe that the BC is doing a good thing here in trying to turn that around. The first move had to be made by someone. The breeders weren't going to do it. They didn't have any incentive at all to breed horses to run longer distances when there were no races to run them. Now, they will have some spots so now there will be at least a little incentive. I applaud the BC for making the first move here. They've created a market for breeders to fill. But it's going to take time. I don't think anyone that is into the game and knows what's really going on is going to mistake the horses that win this race as true champions. We know it's going to be won for a while by the plodders that have no speed and can't compete with others at normal distances. Horses like Jazil, for instance. For a person like me, one who's usually looking at the negative side of the sport and trying to look for ideas that could make it better, I think this is a step in the right direction. A baby step but a step nonetheless.

I have to say that i agree with almost everything you say here. As you say, people are complaining when races are dropped in distance, which is most likely to do with the breeders and their wants/needs. Now people also complain with longer distance races.

However, i'm not sure this kind of race should be on the BC, when the schedule is being packed full so it seems.

More 12 furlong races by all means, but i'm not sure if the BC is the right place, not while they continue to add races like they are going out of fashion.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

I have to say that i agree with almost everything you say here. As you say, people are complaining when races are dropped in distance, which is most likely to do with the breeders and their wants/needs. Now people also complain with longer distance races.

However, i'm not sure this kind of race should be on the BC, when the schedule is being packed full so it seems.

More 12 furlong races by all means, but i'm not sure if the BC is the right place, not while they continue to add races like they are going out of fashion.

I agree there. People complain if races are shortened, they complain if races are lengthened. Some complain that the rest of the world seems more interested in turf and we're crazy for being dirt-centric, then others get upset at the idea that turf is getting more play because the foundation is just not there yet. I understand the dilution issue if you cover every conceivable distance and surface, that's absolutely a concern. I do think we'll have some lousy fields potentially but the BC folks are looking at their job glass half full (of handle, hopes and dreams, more handle...) and is it really their fault many owners, trainers, and breeders aren't thinking about getting a horse all year to the end of the year to run a championship race and decide instead to tip toe with their hothouse horses? They used to have that mile and a half on dirt distance in mind, at least some did anyway. As for who's going to win that 1 1/2 (that I would've preferred to see at 1 3/4 to ideally 2 miles or so) I am actually a little intrigued by the situation in which they've put themselves. Not sold but intrigued. I'm not going to complain about this one, I've been wanting more route races, I'm gonna hush and let them give me one. I will however do like I do with the juvenile turf preps and critique the lead up. Can't just throw those things into a vacuum. Speaking of which you just knew they'd pad the schedule once the 3 races came on Friday...I knew they couldn't help themselves and were eying this as a KY Oaks-day style deal but not just for the ladies.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

But, there's really a great deal of hypocracy to go around. Considering it was the BC itself that caused races to be cut back in distance it is a real side splitter that they now seek to create a race for the very types they helped diminish. Oh the great BC knows both benevolance and irony.....don't they?

Amen. There's so much irony I don't know where to look. The industry's getting so full of blame--one side blames the other and then turns around and causes part of the problem. It's almost becoming a chicken and the egg deal right now. The downfall of stamina definitely coincided with the BC era but that was also the glut in the stallion market right? Bubble days with the yearling purchases,etc I mean. That played a role in 'bubble'-wrapping the expensive purchases and protecting them from too much pesky racing and wear and tear. (sarcasm) These animals cost money don'tcha know. Is the argument that the BC fed into the bubble-fest? You'll have to forgive my slight obliviousness and educated guess at the connection. I wasn't really terribly focused on adult matters at that age. Not to date the rest of you but some folks here have more of a first hand experience of the change in the industry. It helps to have things put in context for us spring chickens.

Originally Posted by miraja2

Man, you were spot on in this prediction.
People in this thread have been so busy complaining about the 12f race that they have missed how absolutely stupid it is to have a juvenile turf race for filles. How completely ridiculous can you get?

Yup, the first thing I chuckled at was the going ape over the 12f when my reaction was to the juvenile turf race for fillies. Surely there's enough spots in the juvenile turf and not much difference in the sexes at that age that you'll get a fuller field with just the one. That's not crazy right? Are people that afraid to go co-ed on turf at 2? Turf mares face boys a lot more in Europe, really it's in our interest if they're trying to follow that model to just throw em all in the pot and start it young. I like the concept of the Breeders' Cup, not gonna lie, I just feel execution's an issue because there are so many variables and breeding dollars are just nuts. I'll applaud the effort to promote turf and distance here because I've always thought that would be a good idea (though through the BC, that's a whole can of worms) and I'll spend the next few years watching in between my fingers like you do with scenes in movies where you really don't know if you're gonna enjoy the thing but you can't quite help yourself.

Let's not joke about the Greys only race thing. Some folks would truly jump at it.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Couple things. Do you really think this race was set up to try and "improve" the breed? I don't. And do you really think this is going to matter? This game has changed so much in the last 15-20 years and I am afraid it can never be changed back. There is too much money in breeding. Breeders and buyers want to see quick works and speed. Isn't this the complete opposite. I see your point, but don't think it is realistic.

It may turn out to not be realistic and the things I'm hoping for may never happen. I am just glad that there is now something to hope for. Without making this race and some others throughout the year for these types of horses to run in, there was never any hope that breeders would ever breed these kinds of horses anymore and I didn't even blame them.

To answer your question, no, I don't really think it was done to improve the breed. I know it was done with greed in mind. But if a side effect can end up helping the game out a little bit, I'm ok with that.

[blackthroatedwind]

How is does it " help the game " to attempt to create a division of slow horses?

[booner]

Like the addition of the Turf Sprint. Should've been added this year.

Mixed on the Turf Juvenile Fillies. Might get 2 quality fillies and a field of 10, if they're lucky.

Don't like the 1 1/2 "Marathon". I'm in agreement with the majority in this thread......thinking we'll see more allowance than Breeder's Cup quality horses.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Since horses with "wire" or "stalking" speed (as opposed to "plodders") usually win the Belmont Stakes, the only current benchmark race, why will plodders win the BC Dirt Marathon?

Because I think those horses that have any kind of speed will be in the Classic or the Dirt Mile and the Marathon will be left with all of the horses that are devoid of any kind of speed. The Belmont is won by horses with speed because they are better than the other horses and there isn't another choice of race for them on that same day. On BC day, there will be other races.

[Danzig]

or maybe these races were added for next year only(but not necessarily announced as such), to try to appeal to the euros more. after all, with the all weather track, there would be no worries about shipping all that way and then having to face a bad track like they did at monmouth. not all experiments are repeated. if it is a failure, i'm sure they'd go back to the drawing board.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Because I think those horses that have any kind of speed will be in the Classic or the Dirt Mile and the Marathon will be left with all of the horses that are devoid of any kind of speed. The Belmont is won by horses with speed because they are better than the other horses and there isn't another choice of race for them on that same day. On BC day, there will be other races.

You don't honestly think their will be real horses considering those three races as options....do you? The Marathon will be completely comprised by horses that were never even considered for the Mile or Classic.