Bless You George Washington...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

typical bs and I hate to tell him that Churchill and Belmont which are the 2 likely choices for the next BC's are still dirt.

i wonder how things will go next year on the all weather.....will more euros come do you suppose?
call me crazy, but i'd imagine they'll still be calling the vets for the evil drugs upon landing....

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i wonder how things will go next year on the all weather.....will more euros come do you suppose?
call me crazy, but i'd imagine they'll still be calling the vets for the evil drugs upon landing....

I dont know if they will come because they dont like
1. Weather - too hot
2. Cali - too far
3. Turns too tight
4. Turf too hard (though this year it was too soft! go figure euros complaining about soft turf)
5. Money exchange is bad
6. Too many drugs
7. wrong kind of synthetic track
8. no free plane rides

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont know if they will come because they dont like
1. Weather - too hot
2. Cali - too far
3. Turns too tight
4. Turf too hard (though this year it was too soft! go figure euros complaining about soft turf)
5. Money exchange is bad
6. Too many drugs
7. wrong kind of synthetic track
8. no free plane rides

i should be there though

if its marketed properly to Aussie and Asian horses, next years BC could be the best yet..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by brockguy

i should be there though

if its marketed properly to Aussie and Asian horses, next years BC could be the best yet..

You are honorary Yankee...you dont really count!

[Riot]

If someone takes a great-performing horse off the track at three and puts him into the shed, they are greedy bastards.

If they take the non-useful horse out of the shed and put the good race horse back on the track to continue to race, they are greedy bastards.

If a horse isn't a top fav for a race he shouldn't be in there.

Fields are too short because everyone is afraid of being beat and pulls their horse. We deserve better - put those longer shots back in there.

If a horse breaks down, it's the connection's fault - they knew the horse was at risk.

Or it's the fault of the dirt. Or the poly. Or the turf. Or the breeding. Or drug abuse.

I forgot this one: if you are one of the top ten horses in the country in your division, you're still nothing but crap if your Beyer is 5 points less than those better, and you don't deserve to race with them!

This sport is so confusing.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

If someone takes a great-performing horse off the track at three and puts him into the shed, they are greedy bastards.

If they take the non-useful horse out of the shed and put the good race horse back on the track to continue to race, they are greedy bastards.

If a horse isn't a top fav for a race he shouldn't be in there.

Fields are too short because everyone is afraid of being beat and pulls their horse. We deserve better - put those longer shots back in there.

If a horse breaks down, it's the connection's fault - they knew the horse was at risk.

Or it's the fault of the dirt. Or the poly. Or the turf. Or the breeding. Or drug abuse.

This sport is so confusing.

will all that fit in a 'nutshell'?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

will all that fit in a 'nutshell'?

What would we talk about if we all thought alike?

George was beautiful - loved his face.

[JJP]

He was in the race for one reason: not because it was the best spot but because if by some miracle and he won or ran 2nd or even 3rd, he would've enhanced his stud value.

Bolger's comments are laughable. I would equate it to Bobby Frankel or Todd Pletcher saying the Epsom Derby is meaningless because it often isn't run on firm turf.

[ArlJim78]

It looks to be just a slap at US racing.

as far as the drugs issue, okay yes thats a valid one that we have to deal with, and maybe we aren't the example for the world. but the event that prompted his comment was the breakdown of a European horse, so I don't get the tie in to drugs.

and as far as the surface goes, advocating polytrack for all future BC's, can he actually be making the leap that using polytrack for the BC will guarantee no breakdowns will occurr? is he implying that there are no breakdowns over there on polytrack? and is polytrack safer than turf? if so why don't they run all the big european races on poly for safety? if its like he says and polytrack "separates the men from the boys" then why don't they lead the way?

as most people know on here I think polytrack might be safer in the long run, but a breakdown can occur anytime on any surface.

why should we take these comments seriously? I'm guessing he would have had nothing to say had George pulled off an upset and won the thing.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

It looks to be just a slap at US racing.

as far as the drugs issue, okay yes thats a valid one that we have to deal with, and maybe we aren't the example for the world. but the event that prompted his comment was the breakdown of a European horse, so I don't get the tie in to drugs.

and as far as the surface goes, advocating polytrack for all future BC's, can he actually be making the leap that using polytrack for the BC will guarantee no breakdowns will occurr? is he implying that there are no breakdowns over there on polytrack? and is polytrack safer than turf? if so why don't they run all the big european races on poly for safety? if its like he says and polytrack "separates the men from the boys" then why don't they lead the way?

as most people know on here I think polytrack might be safer in the long run, but a breakdown can occur anytime on any surface.

why should we take these comments seriously? I'm guessing he would have had nothing to say had George pulled off an upset and won the thing.

Jim,

It is a slap at US racing.. and one well-meant. And deserved. We're an embarassment on the International front in regards to our allowing tons of pharmaceutical enhancements in our horses, not to mention hidden foal surgeries and steroids in our sales yearlings/2yo's, etc.. It's a system totally skewed to greed that's hastened the deterioration of the quality of the racing and is undermining of the integrity of the breed.

And they do lead the way and don't need to run their races on polytrack... They're running on turf except at the all-weather/all-season locales. The comments should be taken seriously because they reflect the contempt that's out there for what is an increasingly inferior product on track in this country. That's fueled by increasingly fragile horses that are babied by the training community due to the need of the owners to feed right back into the perverted financial machine of the breeding side. It's a vicious circle.

[sumitas]

The general issue is integrity and safety of the horse and rider. American horse racing does have a bad reputation for lack of safety and the over use of drugs. Full disclosure of any horse at auction must be enforced and the sooner the better.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Jim,

It is a slap at US racing.. and one well-meant. And deserved. We're an embarassment on the International front in regards to our allowing tons of pharmaceutical enhancements in our horses, not to mention hidden foal surgeries and steroids in our sales yearlings/2yo's, etc.. It's a system totally skewed to greed that's hastened the deterioration of the quality of the racing and is undermining of the integrity of the breed.

And they do lead the way and don't need to run their races on polytrack... They're running on turf except at the all-weather/all-season locales. The comments should be taken seriously because they reflect the contempt that's out there for what is an increasingly inferior product on track in this country. That's fueled by increasingly fragile horses that are babied by the training community due to the need of the owners to feed right back into the perverted financial machine of the breeding side. It's a vicious circle.

Coolmore and Darley are not American based outfits...

Personally I dont care what the euros or others think. They have no problem coming over for our races and the big money purses. They have no problems coming over and buying our breeding stock and yearlings. Sheik Mo has no problem since he is focused so much on the American market in recent years in both breeding and racing. They have no problem taking our money for their castoffs especially the ones who need medication like Lasix. They have no problem when so many of their riders (ex boys/girls) come over here looking for better opportunites. They never particularly cared about dirt racing until now.

Maybe they should look into their own system of racing outside the top stakes where 1/2 the field isn't even trying in order to get a lower handicap. Our leading jockey is not on trial for race fixing. Maybe they should try to fix their own house where maidens run for crap purses. Maybe they should have theri own Breeders Cup and do with it whatever they want. Run it on turf, dirt, poly, fibresand, whatever.

Remind Jim Bolger that we dont need them, racing in this country did just fine pre breeders cup and pre polytrack.

I have no problem with the european tracks, horses, or horseman. As a matter of fact I like going over there and love Newmarket. But they have no right to tell us what to do or how to do it if they participate in a few select events a year.

By the way will Mr. Bolger be boycotting the Dubai festival because of that dreaded dirt?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Jim,

It is a slap at US racing.. and one well-meant. And deserved. We're an embarassment on the International front in regards to our allowing tons of pharmaceutical enhancements in our horses, not to mention hidden foal surgeries and steroids in our sales yearlings/2yo's, etc.. It's a system totally skewed to greed that's hastened the deterioration of the quality of the racing and is undermining of the integrity of the breed.

And they do lead the way and don't need to run their races on polytrack... They're running on turf except at the all-weather/all-season locales. The comments should be taken seriously because they reflect the contempt that's out there for what is an increasingly inferior product on track in this country. That's fueled by increasingly fragile horses that are babied by the training community due to the need of the owners to feed right back into the perverted financial machine of the breeding side. It's a vicious circle.

I still don't get what it has to do with George Washington. He is not part of the inferior product you are speaking about I assume, after all he was bred in Ireland. Our top horses by and large all had very solid healthy campaigns. Heck this year it would look like we're the model to follow, not to denigrate. I'm not saying there isn't a big problem, for sure there is. I don't know what the answers are to that though.

I would be more inclined to take it seriously if the remarks weren't made just after the superior euro's were shut out at the breeders cup by our inferior product, it just has the sound of sour grapes to me. It sounds like an attempt to blame America for this. maybe i'm reading to much into it but thats what I hear in those words.
Why was this the moment for Mr. Bolger to offer remedies for US racing?
Did he speak to the issue that George Washington didn't seem to belong in the race? was he really prepared for a 10F dirt race? I said over and over before the race that I didn't understand why the horse was running. It was the wrong distance, wrong surface, and the horse was obviously not currently at a competitive level with our top dirt routers.

Okay if we are to listen and take this seriously, are you in favor of running all future Classics on polytrack?

it just bothers me for anyone to use a particular breakdown to try to prove a complex point. what immediate conclusions should Americans have made about euro racing when Horatio Nelson was fatally injured in the Epsom Derby last year for the same connections? it was on turf and i guess no drugs were involved.

[Fearless Leader]

The ONLY ones to blame for the death of George Washington are his connections. A classic winning miler in europe, who was sterile, by the way, had absolutely nothing to gain by running in the classic. Especially not on dirt sloppy, or otherwise. Bad judgement by O'brien. Even worse was the jock continuing to beat the tar out of him when he was spinning his wheels going nowhere.

The connections got what they deserved (poor performances due to greed/arrogance). The only unfortunate part is that it came at the life expense of a super horse.

How dare they lash out at every one and everything associated with American racing and the Breeder's Cup. That outfit busts up more expensive horseflesh than anyone. Talk about living in denial.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by brockguy

i should be there though

if its marketed properly to Aussie and Asian horses, next years BC could be the best yet..

THe best Aussie and NZed horses are never going to come for the BC in late Oct/early Nov. That is when the Spring Festival is taking place in Melbourne - do you think they will choose to fly thousands of miles, put up with the time and season change to gamble on the BC when they could be running in some of the most important and remunerative races on their calendar? We're talking Melbourne Cup, Cox Plate, Epsom H, not to mention the Victoria Derby and Oaks. (Their 3yos won't come anyway because they are just barely 3 - official birthday 1 August.) Would a US owner skip the Met Mile to go run in the Doncaster H in the Sydney Autumn Carnival?

The BC is a 'World Championship" in name only. It's PR, plain and simple. It's not even a North American championship, since horses can be excluded for not being nominated or having a non-nominated sire. Real championships take everybody who qualify on equal terms.

I was paying attention when the BC idea was being kicked around and the original idea was to put up a big enough purse that top horses, especially 3yos, would have an incentive to stay in training into the fall, or come back for another year. The insane inflation of stallion values was driving earlier and earlier retirements and this was designed to be a solution. But some framers feared that stallion owners who knew their stallion's foals were never going to be 10f dirt runners wouldn't nominate, so lowering the pot. Thus, the additional races were devised, which ended up rewarding owners for buying 2yos who won't train on at 3 and horses who run out of gas after 6f.

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by Cardus

We will not see top-notch Aussies in America at the end of October because of the Spring Carnival; shipping Asian horses here at that time is tricky because of the Hong Kong races six weeks later, and with the dirt races being conducted on a synthetic surface next year, you probably eliminate the top Japanese dirt horses.

It's a great thought, though; I'd love to see more international participation here for the Breeders' Cup, as we see in Dubai and Hong Kong's international series.

as usual, youre spot on.. i suppose one problem with the Japanese is that if they do travel, they have to travel for either big purses (ie Dubai) or huge prestige (ie Europe). They see Europe and in particular, the Arc as the holy grail of racing and subsidise horses trying to achieve that goal. The Breeders Cup is not held in the same regard. Do the Breeders Cup even have a PR guy like Ascot's Nick Smith who goes around the world trying to get connections to race??

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by brockguy

as usual, youre spot on.. i suppose one problem with the Japanese is that if they do travel, they have to travel for either big purses (ie Dubai) or huge prestige (ie Europe). They see Europe and in particular, the Arc as the holy grail of racing and subsidise horses trying to achieve that goal. The Breeders Cup is not held in the same regard. Do the Breeders Cup even have a PR guy like Ascot's Nick Smith who goes around the world trying to get connections to race??

Byk

[Riot]

Jay Hoveday wrote an interesting editorial piece in DRF tonight ("Horses Put Needlessly At Risk"). He kind of goes here and there within the piece (I think he is just upset, as nearly all are, at the loss of a great horse while racing).

But he does say the event should be delayed if a track is in the same condition in the future (while also noting the BC horses that have broken down while on different surfaces, at different venues, at different tracks).

What constitutes a "safe enough" track? Should dirt racing be cancelled if it rains significantly?

[Danzig]

we've lost more horses on better days condition-wise.
knee jerk reactions imo.

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont know if they will come because they dont like
1. Weather - too hot
2. Cali - too far
3. Turns too tight
4. Turf too hard (though this year it was too soft! go figure euros complaining about soft turf)
5. Money exchange is bad
6. Too many drugs
7. wrong kind of synthetic track
8. no free plane rides

I think we will send a number of horses to Santa Anita. Some will be put off because of the heat and the distance, but overall we have had quite a good record there in recent years, i believe.

Extremes of turf conditions is always a problem. The only horses that didn't want a soft surface this year was Dylan Thomas. Unlike most european turf horses, the turf cannot be firm enough for him. As Aidan commented, he needs it like "concrete".

Exchange rate will hopefully be better than it is right now. Why is the dollar so weak at the moment???? We are getting a dollar for around 30 pence right now. I have never seen it so weak for so many months.

Our racing country is far too kind by giving free transport for overseas horses to our big meets, having said that they do it in Dubai, too.

One option i have heard for the Breeders Cup "world championships" is to split it into two. Have the turf races in europe or even asia, and the dirt races in America. I think then it really could be called a "world championship" event.

Although the surface doesn't seem to have any direct link with the George Washington injury, vets have said that it isn't impossible that it did cause some ill-effects. I didn't realise that when a dirt track gets so sloppy, the horses are basically running on the hard base, which could have led to the fracture becoming an open fracture with the added concussion going through the leg.