So where are all the "Pletcher is God" disciples and NO BIZ is crap believers?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I cant understand the hating of the horse. To say that he did not run an excellent race in the mile is puzzling. He ran 4th and was only beaten 2 lengths despite a wide trip. He arguably ran as good as anyone in there and is the only runner who is still eligible to improve as a 4 year old. He may not be Miesque but he is a versitile horse who runs consistently on different surfaces and different distances. He is easily one of the top 6 or 7 three year olds this year from a good crop of about 18000 male foals. What's not to like?

There is no hating of the horse. The fans just need a reality check. This horse was this years most overhyped horse by far. He might improve at 4 but he really hasn't improved that much since he was 2.

He seems to always have an excuse. Whether it was the crowd bothered him (hilarious) or he got a wide trip. Wow a wide trip in a turf mile race. Who would have thought it.

The knock on him in this race was he just flattened out and a horse like Excellent Art, who had a much harder trip, just blew by him.

Is he a nice horse? Sure, but he is nothing special. To say this horse had a good day and Pletcher a bad day (the topic of the thread) is very funny. The one guy wins the second biggest race of the day and the horse runs a fading 4th. Now who had the good day and who had the bad day?

Reality check for this horse please.

[NoLuvForPletch]

Originally Posted by Benevolus

There is no hating of the horse. The fans just need a reality check. This horse was this years most overhyped horse by far. He might improve at 4 but he really hasn't improved that much since he was 2.

He seems to always have an excuse. Whether it was the crowd bothered him (hilarious) or he got a wide trip. Wow a wide trip in a turf mile race. Who would have thought it.

The knock on him in this race was he just flattened out and a horse like Excellent Art, who had a much harder trip, just blew by him.

Is he a nice horse? Sure, but he is nothing special. To say this horse had a good day and Pletcher a bad day (the topic of the thread) is very funny. The one guy wins the second biggest race of the day and the horse runs a fading 4th. Now who had the good day and who had the bad day?

Reality check for this horse please.

Overhyped??? Lawyer Ron and Any Given Saturday got an awful lot of face time over the past few months. They weren't even in the picture when the Superfecta was completed.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

Overhyped??? Lawyer Ron and Any Given Saturday got an awful lot of face time over the past few months. They weren't even in the picture when the Superfecta was completed.

Of course, they both won meaningful races after April.

NT

[Bobby Fischer]

Nobiz didn't embarass himself. For a 9 or 10 furlong horse who is more of a great animal with versatility than a true top class turf animal, he really did well against some top class turf older horse milers.

Pletcher had at least English Channel and Honey Rider run big races (without looking over the charts). Lawyer Ron was a Grade 2 horse that couldn't finish a race before Pletcher pumped him up. Lawyer Ron had some of the best 4yo races this summer. It would have been a little funky to see Lawyer Ron win the classic but Pletcher actually made that horse into something you would have to consider as one of the five win contenders.
Any Given Saturday was naturally a 8.5 furlong horse. He happened to peak around the same time as Lawyer Ron this year and won an 8.5 and 9 furlong race in some of the best performances of the year for a 3yo horse. Again it would have been funky if this guy won the classic off a trainer move up , but he was one of the 5 contenders. They actually parlayed his Distorte Humor x AP Indy pedigree combined with the trainer/vet move-up for a hugely inflated sale! It was a Super year from Pletcher in that regard.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Benevolus

There is no hating of the horse. The fans just need a reality check. This horse was this years most overhyped horse by far. He might improve at 4 but he really hasn't improved that much since he was 2.

He seems to always have an excuse. Whether it was the crowd bothered him (hilarious) or he got a wide trip. Wow a wide trip in a turf mile race. Who would have thought it.

The knock on him in this race was he just flattened out and a horse like Excellent Art, who had a much harder trip, just blew by him.

Is he a nice horse? Sure, but he is nothing special. To say this horse had a good day and Pletcher a bad day (the topic of the thread) is very funny. The one guy wins the second biggest race of the day and the horse runs a fading 4th. Now who had the good day and who had the bad day?

Reality check for this horse please.

Where did Excellent Art have a tougher trip? He tucked in early, stayed covered up and made a late run while lugging in on his own accord. He finished one length ahead of NoBiz. I mean your standards are seemingly so high that only on or two horses are any good in a given year? I dont know anyone who was calling this horse a hall of fame horse or superstar. But he is a really nice horse who if he had an inside trip may very well be the BC mile winner.

Pletcher winning one race is not a good day as per the standards that he set, especially when he had 2 possibiles for horse of the year run way off the board. Sure it might be a great day for a smaller trainer but I'm sure he is not really that thrilled over it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Where was he "overhyped?" Even if you limit your media to this chat room only, he received support and had detractors. There are over 1,000 people affiliated with this board; were 5% of the people on his bandwagon?

I thought that he ran a solid race on Saturday. Flattened out a little bit, but he beat most of the field to the wire in his first attempt on a soft surface. Not bad, and I'd like to own a horse who can run reasonably well on dirt -- though he might not return to that surface next year, given Tagg's reason for transferring him to the turf -- and on turf. Not too many of those out there, right?

He is an Albert the Great that can run...kind of a freak of nature really

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He is an Albert the Great that can run...kind of a freak of nature really

Well the Albert the Great connection and the purchasing of a certain amount of ad space in the bloodhorse probably had a little to do with the fact that the bloodhorse was in love with Nobiz for some reason. Haskin commenting that we haven't seen an american turf horse in years with the turn of foot of Nobiz was either the result of too much drinking or a wad of 100's stuffed in his pocket by three chimneys. LOL

As for Nobiz vs Excellent Art, the Louisville Courier comments were

"He's a good or fast ground horse," said Aidan O'Brien, who trains Excellent Art. "He was drawn outside (post 13), so he had to let the race unfold, but he was closing, closing, closing at the end."

Nobiz Like Shobiz made a strong bid at the top of the stretch but flattened out to finish fourth.

Excellent Art's trip cost him the win. The trip Nobiz had was better than the trip the 5th and 6th place finishers had and they nearly caught him


The fact is Nobiz might not have liked an off track and ran a decent race but the betting public making him 2nd choice and the amount of hype around the horse is insanity.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Benevolus

Well the Albert the Great connection and the purchasing of a certain amount of ad space in the bloodhorse probably had a little to do with the fact that the bloodhorse was in love with Nobiz for some reason. Haskin commenting that we haven't seen an american turf horse in years with the turn of foot of Nobiz was either the result of too much drinking or a wad of 100's stuffed in his pocket by three chimneys. LOL

As for Nobiz vs Excellent Art, the Louisville Courier comments were

"He's a good or fast ground horse," said Aidan O'Brien, who trains Excellent Art. "He was drawn outside (post 13), so he had to let the race unfold, but he was closing, closing, closing at the end."

Nobiz Like Shobiz made a strong bid at the top of the stretch but flattened out to finish fourth.

Excellent Art's trip cost him the win. The trip Nobiz had was better than the trip the 5th and 6th place finishers had and they nearly caught him


The fact is Nobiz might not have liked an off track and ran a decent race but the betting public making him 2nd choice and the amount of hype around the horse is insanity.

The Bloodhorse takes adds from all the major farms so I'm sure they aren't biased towards Three Chimney farm especially for that stallion. Saying that Steve Haskin would take money to write nice about a horse is just plain stupid. Haskin is not only a great writer especially as compared to most of what we get for writers in this sport but his reputation and integrity is impeccable.

[ceejay]

NoBiz @ 4-1 second choice was the underlay of the day.

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by ceejay

NoBiz @ 4-1 second choice was the underlay of the day.

true.


and this was even with the linesmaker stubbornly setting opening him @ 8-1 !
If he went by the public and started him at 3-1 in the program , he may have gone off at 3-1.


edit - most distinguished was pretty bad as well - i forget where he went off. Nashobas key had her work cut out with the soft.. who else? discreet cat(friday), Helsinki! (no way in the slop) ... come to think of it, should have made a lot more money than we did.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Benevolus

The fact is Nobiz might not have liked an off track and ran a decent race but the betting public making him 2nd choice and the amount of hype around the horse is insanity.

if your whole point is that he was an underlay, ok, we get it. you could be right. there is no arguing that he ran a nice race finishing only 2 lengths back.
to imply that he is slow though is hard to understand. if NoBiz-like speed is the threshold below which all horses are slow, then 99.9% of all horses are slow.

somehow i am missing all the hype on this horse that you keep referring to.
to me an article or statement in bloodhorse does not constitute excessive hype.

[whodey17]

No Biz is a still a good horse. The horse finished 4th in the BC Mile. I would take that anyday of the week.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He is an Albert the Great that can run...kind of a freak of nature really

Nobiz Like Shobiz $1,544,730
Albertus Maximus $193,370
Royal Right $174,329
Dr. Einstein $135,538
My Great Love $116,270
Motion $114,355
Always Albert $96,060
Topside Trader $88,445
Great Bridge $76,975
Almagnus $76,930

Year Wins Earned
2005 16 $271,123
2006 75 $1,659,474
*Totals 91 $1,930,597
add for 2007 so far 35 winners from 59 starters, earnings of $2,334,223

His oldest foals are 4, far too early to dismiss a sire as useless. They don't sell particularly well for some reason, but it isn't because they can't run. He hasn't had super-sized crops - 67 in '03, 51 in '04, 61 in '05 (current 2yos) - and in general they aren't ready at 2, Nobiz being the exception. If I were a breed-to-race breeder, I'd consider him a bargain at $7,500.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Nobiz Like Shobiz $1,544,730
Albertus Maximus $193,370
Royal Right $174,329
Dr. Einstein $135,538
My Great Love $116,270
Motion $114,355
Always Albert $96,060
Topside Trader $88,445
Great Bridge $76,975
Almagnus $76,930

Year Wins Earned
2005 16 $271,123
2006 75 $1,659,474
*Totals 91 $1,930,597
add for 2007 so far 35 winners from 59 starters, earnings of $2,334,223

His oldest foals are 4, far too early to dismiss a sire as useless. They don't sell particularly well for some reason, but it isn't because they can't run. He hasn't had super-sized crops - 67 in '03, 51 in '04, 61 in '05 (current 2yos) - and in general they aren't ready at 2, Nobiz being the exception. If I were a breed-to-race breeder, I'd consider him a bargain at $7,500.

Outside of Nobiz that is not exactly murders row. Dont forget we live in the day of 80k allowance races at places like presque isle...

[King Glorious]

Perspective is a good word here. Take the New York Yankees, for example. There are 30 teams in the major leagues and only eight of them make the playoffs. I believe it's been 12 consecutive seasons that the Yankees have been one of those eight. They've won four championships in that span. However, they've not won the championship since 2000 and haven't even been to the World Series since 2003. Now, I'm sure that the fans of the Pirates, Brewers, Royals, Devil Rays, Rangers, Mariners, etc., would LOVE to trade places with the Yankees. These teams can't even get into the playoffs. The Yankees get there every year and fire their manager because they have just had another disappointing season. There are different expectations for different people. There is a term that goes well here; to whom much is given, much is expected. In the case of Pletcher, there is no doubt that he expects more. He's given a much better hand to start than 99% of his competition. I know that last year, he didn't win any races but his stable came away with over $2 million in earnings and he won another national earnings title and broke the record. May have earned the Eclipse last year too but I don't remember. He himself admitted though that it was a disappointing day for him in the BC last year. I suppose that because he actually won one of the races this year, it was better for him but he still didn't reach the expectations that were set for him, either by the public or by himself. To see those arguing on his behalf that he had a successful day is kind of funny when if u ask him, he'd tell u he is disappointed.

As for Nobiz, let's understand something. I don't think that anyone has called him any kind of world beater. I was never a fan of his and still won't say that I am. But he's a horse that was among the best of his generation as a 2yo and throughout the first half of his 3yo season. This was on the dirt. He won a grade one and won or placed in several other graded races. Sure, he's not at the level of Curlin, Street Sense, Hard Spun and maybe Any Given Saturday. But after those four, there is not another 3yo that I'd take over him. Then he switched to grass and ran some very big races. He didn't win the Mile but he lost by only about two lengths to Kip Deville and Excellent Art and both of those horses are world class runners. There is absolutely no shame in that. What I think that some people fail to realize is that today's runners just aren't as good as they have been in the past decades. The top dirt Beyer in a route this year was 119, reached by two horses. We've gotten used to seeing Candy Ride go 124, Pleasantly Perfect reach the 120 mark a few times. Ghostzapper made 120+ seem routine. The list includes several others. So what we have to realize is that the bar is being lowered each year. If none of these top 3yo's come back next year, we could see an even more pathetic group of older horses, where the winners of races like the SA Hcp, JCGC, Woodward, etc, can barely reach the 110 level. But there is something to remember. Each year, we are going to have a group of horses. Either it's going to be a good group or it's going to be a bad one. Either way, there will be a best of that group. I think that anyone that can't recognize that Nobiz is among the best of his group decided that a long time ago and doesn't want to admit they are wrong.