Best Broodmare

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Plucky Liege is a mare a lot of you haven't heard of, but she produced 3 classic winners - Sir Gallahad III, Bois Roussel, and Admiral Drake - all of whom became influential sires. So did Sir G's little brother Bull Dog, sire of Bull Lea, et. al.

You mention Bull Dog as almost an afterthought ... but for a while he was by far the most important of Plucky Liege's offspring ...

... though it all went bad when Bull Lea turned out to be the worst sire of sires in world history.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

You mention Bull Dog as almost an afterthought ... but for a while he was by far the most important of Plucky Liege's offspring ...

... though it all went bad when Bull Lea turned out to be the worst sire of sires in world history.

Excuse me? Bull Lea was a terrific sire, the reason that Calumet rose to the heights it did. His son Citation was a bust as a sire.

As to Plucky Liege's sons, Sir Gallahad III was leading US sire (4 times to Bull Dog's once) and leading broodmare sire (12 times to Bull Dog's 3), sired a Triple Crown winner and two other Kentucky Derby winners, while Bull Dog sired no winners of Triple Crown races. Bull Dog was not nearly as good a racehorse as Plucky Liege's other 3 sons. Bois Roussel and Admiral Drake stood in Europe and sired classic winners there, had minimal impact on this continent.

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Excuse me? Bull Lea was a terrific sire, the reason that Calumet rose to the heights it did. His son Citation was a bust as a sire.

Hellllooooo ... Pedigree Ann ... are you there?

You may want to re-read my post ... I didn't say Bull Lea wasn't a good sire ... I said he was the worst sire of sires in world history. You see ... a sire is like a daddy ... and a sire of sires is like a grandpa.

And it wasn't just Citation who was a failure at stud ... every single one of Bull Lea's sons was a catastrophe as a stallion. The "Bull Lea line" began and ended with ... Bull Lea.

Do you understand that ... or shall I try to explain it some more?

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

As to Plucky Liege's sons, Sir Gallahad III was leading US sire (4 times to Bull Dog's once) and leading broodmare sire (12 times to Bull Dog's 3), sired a Triple Crown winner and two other Kentucky Derby winners, while Bull Dog sired no winners of Triple Crown races. Bull Dog was not nearly as good a racehorse as Plucky Liege's other 3 sons. Bois Roussel and Admiral Drake stood in Europe and sired classic winners there, had minimal impact on this continent.

Helllloooooo ... Pedigree Ann ... are you there?

Please re-read my post ... I didn't say that Bull Dog was as good a sire of runners as his brother, Sir Gallahad ... nor that Bull Dog was a good race horse.

What I said was "for a while" he was the "most important" of Plucky Liege's offspring. That "while" being the 1940's and 1950's ... when Bull Dog's son Bull Lea was cranking out champions as though he were an assembly line.

But the "assembly line" came to a screeching halt ... when all of Bull Lea's sons were failures at stud. (Oh ... but you already knew that from my previous post.)

Do you understand that ... or shall I try to explain it some more?

[somerfrost]

Been an interesting topic/thread to read...I agree with most that the single most influential mare in history has to be La Troienne...no other can compare. Not sure if anybody posted the link to the Reines-de-Course site so:
http://www.reines-de-course.com/
I guess one could argue the importance of Spilletta...certainly her contribution was rather important...

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Been an interesting topic/thread to read...I agree with most that the single most influential mare in history has to be La Troienne...no other can compare.

Hold on, kimosabe ...

... remember my first post on this thread ... where I said it was Mumtaz Mahal?

If you're just looking at tail-female ... then La Troienne is it ... but ...

... if you're looking at overall impact on the breed ... it's Mumtaz Mahal ... "The Flying Filly" ... by two furlongs

Her influence through male lines is pervasive ... through Mahmoud, Gallant Man, Nasrullah, Royal Charger, My Babu, Northern Dancer, Rahy, St. Ballado, and many more ... and a whole squadron of stakes-producing broodmares.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Hold on, kimosabe ...

... remember my first post on this thread ... where I said it was Mumtaz Mahal?

If you're just looking at tail-female ... then La Troienne is it ... but ...

... if you're looking at overall impact on the breed ... it's Mumtaz Mahal ... "The Flying Filly" ... by two furlongs

Her influence through male lines is pervasive ... through Mahmoud, Gallant Man, Nasrullah, Royal Charger, My Babu, Northern Dancer, Rahy, St. Ballado, and many more ... and a whole squadron of stakes-producing broodmares.

Ah, for total impact, I still go with La Troienne, I see your point though...lets just name them both and call it a compromise!

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Hold on, kimosabe ...

Somer. I think he just called you a swamp.

What difference does it make, top or bottom?

I gotta very likely answer I believe.

[Scav]

Best Broodmare of all time is my Mom....

1 son and three daughters, 3 college educations and the other about to start college and the most astonishing thing in today's world, NO ARRESTS.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Hold on, kimosabe ...

... remember my first post on this thread ... where I said it was Mumtaz Mahal?

If you're just looking at tail-female ... then La Troienne is it ... but ...

... if you're looking at overall impact on the breed ... it's Mumtaz Mahal ... "The Flying Filly" ... by two furlongs

Her influence through male lines is pervasive ... through Mahmoud, Gallant Man, Nasrullah, Royal Charger, My Babu, Northern Dancer, Rahy, St. Ballado, and many more ... and a whole squadron of stakes-producing broodmares.

Mahmoud, Nasrullah, and Royal Charger belong to Mumtaz Mahal's female family(9-c), but My Babu is from the Lavendula branch of the Marchetta family(1-w), Northern Dancer is from Almahmoud branch of the Mother Goose family (2-d), Rahy is from the Skylarking branch of the Lindos Ojos bunch (12-c) and so on. Mumtaz Mahal appears in their pedigrees, but so do a bunch of other good mares, including one I should have mentioned before - Frizette!

US-bred Frizette was the foundation of the Boussac stud, producing 3 SWs and founding a mighty family whose members include the great sire Tourbillon, the champion sprinter Myrtlewood (ancestress of Seattle Slew and Mr. Prospector)..., well, you get the picture.

You want to get technical, Mumtaz Mahal's mum Lady Josephine deserves some of the credit; she produced not only Mumtaz Mahal but Lady Juror, dam of 6 SWs including the important sire Fair Trial and the dam of even more important sire Tudor Minstrel.

In curiosity I took a look at Rahy and found a plethora of important broodmares and family founders, not just Mumtaz Mahal. He has multiple crosses of Selene. Black Ray, and Plucky Liege, also Alcibiades, Pink Domino, La Grelee, Uganda, Lady Juror, Lavendula, Baton Rouge, Herodias, Mother Goose, La Troienne, Betty Derr, Exalted, Vaila, and Cinna, all of whom have had an important influence on the breed.

Pedigree ANN:

What the diff.? Female on the top or bottom and why?

Just trying to get a feel if anyone on the thread likes genetics, not just family trees.

[Pedigree Ann]

I DID misread the post as sire, not sire of sires. However, for Bull Lea, I must plead special circumstances.

Bull Lea's sons included several high-profile runners who 'failed at stud', like Citation (although he did sire a Preakness winner and a champion, the filly Silver Spoon) but actually few of them stayed in the US. Coaltown was shipped to France for stud, Hill Gail went to Ireland and sired a classic winner, Iron Liege had subnormal fertility but sired SWs in France and Japan. Some were decent sires, like Bull Page in Canada, regional sires like Trentonian and Prophets Thumb. But looking through the list of Bull Lea's SWs I was surprised at the proportion of them that were fillies and geldings (like the great Armed). He didn't churn out the sire prospects the way Northern Dancer did; the Dancer also had his share of high-profile 'failures' (Viceregal, Lomond, Danzatore, Shareef Dancer, Secreto) but they were overshadowed by his many successes.

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Mahmoud, Nasrullah, and Royal Charger belong to Mumtaz Mahal's female family(9-c), but My Babu is from the Lavendula branch of the Marchetta family(1-w), Northern Dancer is from Almahmoud branch of the Mother Goose family (2-d), Rahy is from the Skylarking branch of the Lindos Ojos bunch (12-c) and so on. Mumtaz Mahal appears in their pedigrees, but so do a bunch of other good mares, including one I should have mentioned before - Frizette!

US-bred Frizette was the foundation of the Boussac stud, producing 3 SWs and founding a mighty family whose members include the great sire Tourbillon, the champion sprinter Myrtlewood (ancestress of Seattle Slew and Mr. Prospector)..., well, you get the picture.

You want to get technical, Mumtaz Mahal's mum Lady Josephine deserves some of the credit; she produced not only Mumtaz Mahal but Lady Juror, dam of 6 SWs including the important sire Fair Trial and the dam of even more important sire Tudor Minstrel.

In curiosity I took a look at Rahy and found a plethora of important broodmares and family founders, not just Mumtaz Mahal. He has multiple crosses of Selene. Black Ray, and Plucky Liege, also Alcibiades, Pink Domino, La Grelee, Uganda, Lady Juror, Lavendula, Baton Rouge, Herodias, Mother Goose, La Troienne, Betty Derr, Exalted, Vaila, and Cinna, all of whom have had an important influence on the breed.

Hey, Ann ... you're becoming very expert at misreading my posts.

Is that because you're trying hard to do so ... or is it that you just can't read?

I pointed this out in two earlier posts ... Thursday 9:10pm and 9:20pm ... and you didn't even have the graciousness to acknowledge your mistakes.

Now you're taking flight again ... with more erroneous commentary on what I wrote. Are you the latter-day Flying Filly?

It's time for you to show a little class ... and graciously acknowledge your mistakes ... or some people may erroneously start thinking that you're just an airhead ... and a snotty one to boot..