Final Verdict ... Fog Is A Fraud

Originally Posted by prudery

What has not been discussed is that the horse, never pleasant tempered, has become rough and studdish . Far better animals than he have been compromised by "nads" . Count Fleet and Fair Play both lost races for this reason . Fair Play in fact, proved worthless at four because his mind was elsewhere .

Good grief, Charlie Brown!

First it was a quarter crack ... then he was "washed out" ... then it was "just one bad race" ... now we get the biggest doozie of them all ...

... he didn't run because he was too horny!

Well ... at least it's a new tune that we hadn't heard before. I don't like the lyrics ... but it's got a good beat and I can dance to it.

Sheeeesh !!!

[prudery]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Good grief, Charlie Brown!

First it was a quarter crack ... then he was "washed out" ... then it was "just one bad race" ... now we get the biggest doozie of them all ...

... he didn't run because he was too horny!

Well ... at least it's a new tune that we hadn't heard before. I don't like the lyrics ... but it's got a good beat and I can dance to it.

Sheeeesh !!!

Excuse me Sahib, and your 1950's homilies . And please don't dance . If you read what I said, I only said the horse is hormonal this year . I also said he is not the same, brother . I never said this was the reason he lost this race . But I did imply that studdish behavior can compromise whatever racing abilities a horse may or may not have . It is subtly different . You understand subtleties with your intelligence . I did hear you were smart. You said so yourself . Do not twist the words of others to fit your game plan . BTW, from many of your posts it is clear to me that you have absolutely no feeling for or up-close experience with an actual horse beyond the concept that one end ingests the food, and the other one ejects cookies .

Originally Posted by prudery

Excuse me Sahib, and your 1950's homilies . And please don't dance . If you read what I said, I only said the horse is hormonal this year . I also said he is not the same, brother . I never said this was the reason he lost this race . But I did imply that studdish behavior can compromise whatever racing abilities a horse may or may not have . It is subtly different . You understand subtleties with your intelligence . I did hear you were smart. You said so yourself . Do not twist the words of others to fit your game plan . BTW, from many of your posts it is clear to me that you have absolutely no feeling for or up-close experience with an actual horse beyond the concept that one end ingests the food, and the other one ejects cookies .

It's nice to see you posting on this forum, Susan.

That other one must be really boooooooring without me if you're here.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

It's nice to see you posting on this forum, Susan.

That other one must be really boooooooring without me if you're here.

That's Prudery to you mister, former ESPN poster . No one needs you for amusement .

[dalakhani]

Why is there so much blind faith in an animal that has proven to be vastly overrated on multiple occasions?

Saying that he is a "fraud" or "overrated" doesnt mean he is not a good horse. He demonstrated that he is a quality horse, maybe not an "all time great" or "the best sprinter in the country" but a quality horse none the less.

But how can anyone with a logical unbiased brain not see that this horse is not anywhere close to what he was being billed as?

Yes, he won some graded stake races last year, but against what? I know, I know...Ive heard it a million times- he beat what loaded into the gate. But still, does that really mean anything? What loaded into the gate is the magical question? Hot space? Social probation? better than bonds? Querreal? There was nothing in there to test him early and if there was, there was nothing of quality that was going to run him down last year.

He has faced two fields that would have any semblance of quality and has been soundly thrashed in both. When do the excuses end? Are we that desperate for a hero?

For those that disagree, please name me just ONE quality sprinter that he has beaten over the last two years and by quality i mean top ten. Just one.

For those that disagree, how many open company races as he won?

For those that disagree, name me ONE grade 1 sprint that you honestly think he would win at this point. Just one.

Remember, this was a horse that was billed as "the eclipse champion" and an "all time great" by many. If he was being hailed as a good sprinter that was capable of stepping up and winning a couple of nice races, then "fraud" wouldnt be applicable. But after how he was hyped, races like the smile or the comebacker at golden gate should have been breezes.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Why is there so much blind faith in an animal that has proven to be vastly overrated on multiple occasions?

Saying that he is a "fraud" or "overrated" doesnt mean he is not a good horse. He demonstrated that he is a quality horse, maybe not an "all time great" or "the best sprinter in the country" but a quality horse none the less.

But how can anyone with a logical unbiased brain not see that this horse is not anywhere close to what he was being billed as?

Yes, he won some graded stake races last year, but against what? I know, I know...Ive heard it a million times- he beat what loaded into the gate. But still, does that really mean anything? What loaded into the gate is the magical question? Hot space? Social probation? better than bonds? Querreal? There was nothing in there to test him early and if there was, there was nothing of quality that was going to run him down last year.

He has faced two fields that would have any semblance of quality and has been soundly thrashed in both. When do the excuses end? Are we that desperate for a hero?

For those that disagree, please name me just ONE quality sprinter that he has beaten over the last two years and by quality i mean top ten. Just one.

For those that disagree, how many open company races as he won?

For those that disagree, name me ONE grade 1 sprint that you honestly think he would win at this point. Just one.

Remember, this was a horse that was billed as "the eclipse champion" and an "all time great" by many. If he was being hailed as a good sprinter that was capable of stepping up and winning a couple of nice races, then "fraud" wouldnt be applicable. But after how he was hyped, races like the smile or the comebacker at golden gate should have been breezes.

There weren't any great sprinters last year. LITF may not be an all-time great sprinter. I'm sure he could not beat Ghostazapper, Speighstown, Lit De Justice, or several others. LITF may not be that great of a sprinter, but last year I think he was the best sprinter. Who else was there? We really didn't have any consistent Grade I or Grade II sprinters. That is why the first three finishers in the BC Sprint were Silver Train, Taste of Paradise, and Lion Tamer. Who did Silver Train ever beat? Who ran 2nd in the BC Sprint? Taste of Paradise. He hadn't won a race all year. He was 0 for 6. Not only did he have no wins, he didn't even have any 2nds. Then he stepped up and won the Vosburgh at 27-1 and then ran 2nd in the BC Sprint. Taste of Paradise consistently showed all year that he couldn't even win a Grade II or Grade III. How did he win the Vosburgh? He won for a couple of reasons. The first reason is that the race did not play like a Grade I. Tiger Heart ran 2nd. Tiger Heart had never even placed in a graded race before.
You guys are just too caught up with the grade of the race. There were really no true Grade I horses last year. LITF had a much better record than anyone else last year. If you didn't give him the eclispe for best sprinter, you would have had to given it to Silver Train. People couldn't give it to Silver Train because his record was simply inferior to LITF. Both horses had pretty much run against 3 yer olds all year, but LITF was running against the best 3 year olds and he kept winning. ST was losing to medicore 3 year old. They weren't going to give the award to ST off the one big win. The rest of his year was just not good enough.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

There weren't any great sprinters last year. LITF may not be an all-time great sprinter. I'm sure he could not beat Ghostazapper, Speighstown, Lit De Justice, or several others. LITF may not be that great of a sprinter, but last year I think he was the best sprinter. Who else was there? We really didn't have any consistent Grade I or Grade II sprinters. That is why the first three finishers in the BC Sprint were Silver Train, Taste of Paradise, and Lion Tamer. Who did Silver Train ever beat? Who ran 2nd in the BC Sprint? Taste of Paradise. He hadn't won a race all year. He was 0 for 6. Not only did he have no wins, he didn't even have and 2nds. Then he stepped up and won the Vosburgh at 27-1 and then ran 2nd in the BC Sprint. Taste of Paradise consistently showed all year that he couldn't even win a Grade II or Grade III. How did he win the Vosburgh? He won for a couple of reasons. The first reason is that the race did not play like a Grade I. Tiger Heart ran 2nd. Tiger Heart had never even placed in a graded race before.
You guys are just too caught up with the grade of the race. There were really no true Grade I horses last year. LITF had a much better record than anyone else last year. If you didn't give him the eclispe for best sprinter, you would have had to given it to Silver Train. People couldn't give it to Silver Train because his record was simply inferior to LITF. Both horses had pretty much run against 3 yer olds all year, but LITF was running against the best 3 year olds and he kept winning. ST was losing to medicore 3 year old. They weren't going to give the award to ST off the one big win. The rest of his year was just not good enough.

So what are you saying? That he was a deserving champion? There may not have been a "worthy" champion last year and LITF may have been the best of a bad lot. But does that mean he still wasnt overrated?

You said earlier in this thread that you wont "judge him when he doesnt fire" but when do you judge him if that is the case? When he is dancing past overmatched garbage?

Let me give you what i have heard over the last couple of months and tell me what you think:

Sept 05- he doesnt need to go to belmont for a prep. Nah...he just needs to stay home and collect a check and not tire himself out before the big dance. This is one of the best sprinters of all time.

Oct 05- (after bc loss) he just wasnt himself today. It just wasnt him. I mean- look who beat him. Those horses arent any good and it proves that he just wasnt right. Too much travel.

April 06- He doesnt need to go to gulfstream for the richter scale or Aqueduct for the carter. For the first time out, lets just give him an easy preop.

May 06- (after loss) The layoff and the weight took its toll. It wasnt the real foggy. You will see next time.

June 06- (after aristides win) That was the real fog today. It didnt matter what he beat, he beat what dared to load against him.

July 06- (after loss in smile) He didnt show up today. Nope- he didnt fire. Hes acting studdish. He has a quarter crack. The post hurt. He didnt like the track. He was giving too much weight. This wasnt the real fog.



When is it ever going to be "the real fog" that loses? Horses dont "fire" for a reason and when you disregard the factors that lead to a hrose not "firing" you are being blinded by the hype. It seems fog doesnt "fire" when there is a horse in the race that is capable of beating him. Its as simple as that.

He isnt a pig but he isnt close to being the best sprinter in the country. And if that is the case, he is a fraud.

[Rupert Pupkin]

[quote=dalakhani]Why is there so much blind faith in an animal that has proven to be vastly overrated on multiple occasions?

According to that logic, every sprinter out there has proven to be vastly overrated on multiple occasions. Silver Train gets beat time and time again. he's only won 6 times out of 16 races. According to your logic, he has proven time and time again that he is vastly overrated. You could say the same thing for every horse in that race on Saturday.
LITF has hardly proven time and time again that he is overrated. He's only lost 3 times in his entire career.
Don't give me that argument that his record is bad facing older horses in graded races. It's not true. He has faced older horses in graded races 3 times. He's won 1 out of 3. That means he's batting .333. That's probably a better batting average than practically every horse in that race on Saturay. How many of those are batting over .333 in graded races against older horses. Probably not too many. And many of us believe that LITF did not fire in his two defeats.

[dalakhani]

[quote=Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Why is there so much blind faith in an animal that has proven to be vastly overrated on multiple occasions?

According to that logic, every sprinter out there has proven to be vastly overrated on multiple occasions. Silver Train gets beat time and time again. he's only won 6 times out of 16 races. According to your logic, he has proven time and time again that he is vastly overrated. You could say the same thing for every horse in that race on Saturday.
LITF has hardly proven time and time again that he is overrated. He's only lost 3 times in his entire career.
Don't give me that argument that his record is bad facing older horses in graded races. It's not true. He has faced older horses in graded races 3 times. He's won 1 out of 3. That means he's batting .333. That's probably a better batting average than practically every horse in that race on Saturay. How many of those are batting over .333 in graded races against older horses. Probably not too many. And many of us believe that LITF did not fire in his two defeats.

No one called silver train "the best sprinter in the country" and certainly no one ever said that the train was an all time great. When the train lost, there werent a million excuses- he just lost.

There wasnt a tenth of the hype surrounding any of the horses in that race compared to LITF. Not a tenth. Based on the hype, he should have spanked those horses regardless of the excuses.

Quit trying to talk around the point here. The point is that he was vastly overrated. Can you actually disagree with that?

[bogeydaman]

[quote=dalakhani]Why is there so much blind faith in an animal that has proven to be vastly overrated on multiple occasions?

How can you possibly say that LITF was overrated?

Sincerely,

The 2005 USC Football Team


Not to put a damper on this fun thread, but there is so much emotion being used on the words "overrated" in this thread? Just to state the obvious, but "Ratings" are obviously opinions (including those people that voted for the eclipse). People are going to have opinions on both sides of this fence (neither right and neither wrong). I also saw some references in this thread to translating the odds (or lack thereof on Saturday) and translating those odds to how the horse is "rated". For the record LITF has a >+10% ROI (if I did my math correct) which by definition he is underrated (yes I know the argument will be that he would be overrated based on the small sample size of G1/G2 races against older horses). BTW by using this definition there should be a 500 post thread on this board describing how overrated Dubai Escapade is.

[dalakhani]

[quote=bogeydaman]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Why is there so much blind faith in an animal that has proven to be vastly overrated on multiple occasions?

How can you possibly say that LITF was overrated?

Sincerely,

The 2005 USC Football Team


Not to put a damper on this fun thread, but there is so much emotion being used on the words "overrated" in this thread? Just to state the obvious, but "Ratings" are obviously opinions (including those people that voted for the eclipse). People are going to have opinions on both sides of this fence (neither right and neither wrong). I also saw some references in this thread to translating the odds (or lack thereof on Saturday) and translating those odds to how the horse is "rated". For the record LITF has a >+10% ROI (if I did my math correct) which by definition he is underrated (yes I know the argument will be that he would be overrated based on the small sample size of G1/G2 races against older horses). BTW by using this definition there should be a 500 post thread on this board describing how overrated Dubai Escapade is.

Dubai Escapade was not compared to the all time greats. Dubai escapade wasnt voted champion anything. Dubai escapade hasnt been hyped to a fraction that LITF has. Dubai Escapades connections and fans didnt invent a bunch of excuses. Dubai Escapade can still atone and i bet she will.

Would you bet LITF will win a g1 before he is done?