Cigar was the best horse in the last 30 years

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Leroy Jolley, Jack Van Berg, Wayne Lukas etc.

Yeah, that's a good start.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yeah, that's a good start.

Thanks for helping me out there

You missed John Veitch

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Here's something you might not have known....

Bobby Frankel won a share of the Saratoga training title in 1970. "The Chief" didn't win his first of three until the next year.

I had to look it up - but I remember hearing about Frankel winning one of those long before I was ever born.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Here's something you might not have known....

Bobby Frankel won a share of the Saratoga training title in 1970. "The Chief" didn't win his first of three until the next year.

I had to look it up - but I remember hearing about Frankel winning one of those long before I was ever born.

Believe it or not there was a time when Saratoga was not that big of a deal

[The Indomitable DrugS]

It wasn't in 1970?

That years Horse of the Year, champion 2yo filly, champion 3yo male, champion 3yo filly, champion older mare, champion handicap horse, champion Grass horse and champion steeplechase horse all made at least one start at the four week long '70 Saratoga meet.

Only the champion 2yo male and the champion sprinter didn't. The champion 2yo male didn't debut until after Saratoga was finished - and while the champion sprinter didn't run there - she ran there both of the previous two years.

I don't see how you can say the meet wasn't that important. That's a lot of action for four weeks.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

It wasn't in 1970?

That years Horse of the Year, champion 2yo filly, champion 3yo male, champion 3yo filly, champion older mare, champion handicap horse, champion Grass horse and champion steeplechase horse all made at least one start at the four week long '70 Saratoga meet.

Only the champion 2yo male and the champion sprinter didn't. The champion 2yo male didn't debut until after Saratoga was finished - and while the champion sprinter didn't run there - she ran there both of the previous two years.

I don't see how you can say the meet wasn't that important. That's a lot of action for four weeks.

I did not say that good horses did not run there but Belmonts fall meet was considered much more important which is not the case anymore.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Well - that's because of the Breeders Cup I would think.

Still, Frankel had to have been a good trainer in 1970 to win a share of the training title there.

[ELA]

I believe that the "medication" or "drug" topic often becomes the scapegoat of the many ills. Not there is not a drug or medication problem, however it's not the exclusive problematic factor that some make it out to be.

One item that I think is often overlooked beyond the superficial discussions is the "breed" itself. Talk to an expert on breeding and pedigree -- someone like a Bob Fox. The gene pool has been diluted over the course of years, due to a variety of reasons. One could argue Tesio theories all day long, inbred this and outcross that, and so on. However, just by looking at the what has happened in the breeding industry, we can see what has happened to the breed.

There are exceptions to rules and rules that are exceptions, however, I think those that argue that the breed, genetically, has not suffered, are turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to certain realities.

Eric

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Huh?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ELA

I believe that the "medication" or "drug" topic often becomes the scapegoat of the many ills. Not there is not a drug or medication problem, however it's not the exclusive problematic factor that some make it out to be.

One item that I think is often overlooked beyond the superficial discussions is the "breed" itself. Talk to an expert on breeding and pedigree -- someone like a Bob Fox. The gene pool has been diluted over the course of years, due to a variety of reasons. One could argue Tesio theories all day long, inbred this and outcross that, and so on. However, just by looking at the what has happened in the breeding industry, we can see what has happened to the breed.

There are exceptions to rules and rules that are exceptions, however, I think those that argue that the breed, genetically, has not suffered, are turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to certain realities.

Eric

but tesios main rule was breed the best to the best, and hope for the best. that's not the rule any longer--people are no longer trying to improve the breed, they're trying to improve their bottom line. THAT is the biggest problem facing the sport. it used to be that breeders raced their horses, to show they knew what they were doing. that they had taken a good thing, and made it better. not many of them left.