Cigar was the best horse in the last 30 years

[dellinger63]

IMO he is the Larry Holmes of racing. Unfortunately or fortunately for him he faced little competition. Horses who finished 2nd to him in Grade I's include L 'Carriere (twice), Wekivia Springs, Unacconted For, Star Standard, Tinners Way, Devil His Due (twice), Pride of Bukaan and Primitive Hall. Hardly a bunch of world beaters.


Horses he lost to in Grade I's include Alphabet Soup, Explosive Red, Skip Away and Dare and Go. He was the best in the mid 90's when racing was weak.

[NoChanceToDance]

Personally, i'd have to say that The Green Monkey is the best horse in the last 30 years

[Slewbopper]

I guess Slew, Affirmed, and Bid were chopped liver. They would have all eaten him for lunch. I won't get into the Holy Bull debate. Just think Bull would have beaten him more often than not.

[smuthg]

The last 30 years picks up Slew, Affirmed, and the Bid. Love Cigar, but don't think he could run with that crew...

I think there is a decent argument that Cigar was the best horse since the inception of the Breeders' Cup and a pretty strong argument that he's in the Top 5 since then.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by smuthg

The last 30 years picks up Slew, Affirmed, and the Bid. Love Cigar, but don't think he could run with that crew...

We know he couldn't run with them. You had to see Spectacular Bid run to really understand how good he was.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

We know he couldn't run with them. You had to see Spectacular Bid run to really understand how good he was.

An argument could be made that Cigar is the best since The Bid...certainly I have huge respect for several others but I would never say Cigar would be overmatched against any horse since the Bid retired.

[NTamm1215]

Cigar beat everyone who showed up for sixteen consecutive races. I know that is a trite way to argue the whole "who did he beat" debate, but it has to hold water.

I just don't feel the same way about Skip Away that many people do. When you mention him against Cigar I just immediately think Cigar was better, of course that's just a matter of personal opinion.

Ghostzapper is an interesting case in that when he got good, which was basically in his second career start, it almost seemed like no one could ever beat him. Think about the 2004 Breeders' Cup Classic. That race included the 2003 Derby and Preakness winner fresh off a Jockey Club Gold Cup win, the 2002 Horse of the Year, the 2004 Belmont and Travers winner, the 2003 Breeders' Cup Classic winner and the 2004 Whitney winner and other Grade I winners. Ghostzapper beat these horses like a drum.

I like the whole debate a lot, but I'm just not willing to say anyone was the best of the last 30 years. I'm glad we had so many that the discussion can continue.

How many of you think that if Street Sense wins out and then was able to have a 4 year-old campaign (which we know he will not so this is hypothetical) that he would garner some consideration?

NT

[Danzig]

i doubt the streak would have happend had holy bull not suffered his injury. but that's racing.

i'd imagine there could be arguments made for many horses in the thirty year period. cigar was lucky enough to run in a period where there wasn't much top competition.
i think silver charm at his best would have beaten him. sunday silence would have taken him to school. at belmont, easy goer would beat him. that's off the top of my head, and ignoring the obvious such as seattle slew, the bid, etc.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i doubt the streak would have happend had holy bull not suffered his injury. but that's racing.

i'd imagine there could be arguments made for many horses in the thirty year period. cigar was lucky enough to run in a period where there wasn't much top competition.
i think silver charm at his best would have beaten him. sunday silence would have taken him to school. at belmont, easy goer would beat him. that's off the top of my head, and ignoring the obvious such as seattle slew, the bid, etc.

Personally, I think Risen Star may have been the best since The Bid but he never got to prove it...to many "ifs" but the Star's Belmont (on three good hooves) was a sight to see! Likewise, I rank Secretariat and Kincsem at the top of my "all time" list yet there is no way to prove they belong any more than others. The "who did he/she beat" argument is a bit meaningless to me...who did Man O War beat? Certainly I can argue that he ducked the best of his generation...Exterminator. He did handle a worn-down Sir Barton. Ribot destroyed all he faced but what was their quality? Fun discussion but simply a matter of personal opinion.

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by smuthg

The last 30 years picks up Slew, Affirmed, and the Bid. Love Cigar, but don't think he could run with that crew...

I think there is a decent argument that Cigar was the best horse since the inception of the Breeders' Cup and a pretty strong argument that he's in the Top 5 since then.

.......in 1988 alysheba would have bitch slapped him.....hard.

[disappearingdan_akaplaya]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

IMO Holy Bull was a better horse than Cigar. As was Ghostzapper, Mineshaft, Formal Gold and Skip Away.

LOL@ the might mineshaft who ducked the big 1@anita(well connections did) and who only prevailed in 5 horse fields, and got worked in large ones against the likes of BS and PD

[KirisClown]

Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex were the best horses in the last 30 years... it's not even close.

Both were true champions, with hearts the size of the racetrack... They would have laughed at horses like Holy Bull, Cigar, Skip Away.. etc.

[The Bid]

Cigar couldnt have gotten Spectacular Bid out of a jog.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Literally accurate? Not sure.

Funny? Hilarious!

I haven't formulated a full opinion yet -- still thinking about the "brought new fans to the sport" angle -- but aside from a horse like Cigar, with an historic win streak, the titans from the late 70s dwarf most (if not all) of the "greats" thereafter.

Agreed that comparing to Cigar to 70's or other superstars may be apples and oranges, but how do you think horse racing gets new fans? How did you get hooked? Parents? growing up near a track? There are many ways to get fresh blood in what can be a difficult "inner circle" to navigate and I really think that superstars, or preceived superstars, are a big part of it.

[cowgirlintexas]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Agreed that comparing to Cigar to 70's or other superstars may be apples and oranges, but how do you think horse racing gets new fans? How did you get hooked? Parents? growing up near a track? There are many ways to get fresh blood in what can be a difficult "inner circle" to navigate and I really think that superstars, or preceived superstars, are a big part of it.

I don't think he is "hooked"..Personally I think he just like to being a world class Dumb Ass...lol

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Yes, superstar horses can make fans of people; I just haven't seen enough of "new blood" around the racetrack. And I attend live racing often enough to notice. Since superstar horses race so infrequently now, I do not count on them to be the engine driving people to become racing fans.

My father introduced me to racing, perhaps unwittingly. My appreciation of racing is in the genes, without question. I was studying the racing program at a very young age.

I don't think it is apples and oranges to compare Cigar from the mid-90s to the greats from the mid- to late 70s, actually. I thought that The Bid's post about Cigar not getting Spectacular Bid out of a gallop was terrific. Clearly, The Bid was better, as was Affirmed, and Seattle Slew.

Did you read Steven Crist's article in the DRF this morning of how things have differed from the card of the 1987 Travers?

http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do...1&subs=0&arc=0

If anyone invents a time machine, I'd like to buy a ticket for one please.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

What a huge difference between then and now. For breed and racing quality, Then (racing without Lasix) beats Now (running with Lasix, Bute, and steroids) by a mile.

Hate to rain on your parade but Bute and steroids were around in 1987. If you knew what was done to horses then in lieu of Lasix, you would be a big fan of it.

[Sightseek]

Best since Bid = Ghostzapper

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by KirisClown

Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex were the best horses in the last 30 years... it's not even close.

Rankings like this are by nature a little arbitrary so I usually don't like to say something like "You are wrong" in a discussion like this. But I will make an exception in this case. You are wrong.
I would like for you to explain to me how horses like Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, Sunday Silence, etc. etc. etc. are "not even close" to being as good as the two you mentioned. I mean I know those three aren't in the same league as the likes of Birdstone and Giacomo, but they were pretty good.

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Rankings like this are by nature a little arbitrary so I usually don't like to say something like "You are wrong" in a discussion like this. But I will make an exception in this case. You are wrong.
I would like for you to explain to me how horses like Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, Sunday Silence, etc. etc. etc. are "not even close" to being as good as the two you mentioned. I mean I know those three aren't in the same league as the likes of Birdstone and Giacomo, but they were pretty good.

It was a joke... If I was inept enough to believe what I posted, Id kill myself.