A new poll - for men only

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

And the world beaters that Student Council was facing? Let's agree to disagree. You like it, I don't. I suppose we could keep going back and forth, but it's kind of redundant, no?

Who has Student Council raced against?

Watch the replay of his last race at Churchill. He runs two wide around both turns and battles with Brass Hat gamely to the wire losing by a head in TRACK RECORD time for 1 1/16 miles at 1:41.2. The rest of the field was distanced. That record had stood at Churchill for 37 years! Brass Hat despite many leg issues is a Gr1 winner and was second in the Dubai World Cup. This was on a fast dirt track of course.

Time before that Student Council catches a sloppy track at Churchill Downs in the Alysheba Stakes. Wanderin Boy one of the top route speed horses in the country gets an inside post and is therefore nearly impossible to beat. Student Council races three wide on both turns and chases in vain as Wanderin Boy hugs the rail all the way and steals it. SC finishes third 5 back. Half Ours was second. Wanderin Boy merely comes back in the Whitney to push Lawyer Ron to break a 33 year old track record at Saratoga!

Student Council’s recent running lines connect him to top winning efforts and track records in Kentucky, Florida, Ny, and Dubai. The polytrack did not move him up, it merely confirmed his recent sharpness. There was simply no horse in the Pacific Classic that had been connected recently to that type of class and speed.

On the other hand Lava Man’s running lines show him struggling to beat the likes of AP Xcellent, who is another horse who fades late and whose last victory was a second level allowance. His only graded stakes placing was when he held on for third in the grade 2 Californian against Buzzards Bay and Sun Boat. Big Booster also gave him a scare in the GR1 Hollywood Gold Cup and Big Booster is nothing more than a high end claimer/allowance horse.

I think many people just missed these details and Student Councils steady improvement.
Honestly speaking its Lava Man who is not in Student Councils area code at the moment.

For me this is not about the wagering or liking the surface, it’s a matter of trying to be objective. I prefer that to simply making flip statements like the surface is a joke and the race was an eyesore.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Do you think Student Council wins the race on the old Del Mar dirt?

Why not? The point I was making was that he was faster on the TG's (on dirt)coming into the race than everybody except Arson Squad who is distance challenged.
It was an embarassingly bad field for a older horse Grade 1 regardless of surface.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

That's not straight talk in my opinion.

No matter who ran in the Pacific Classic -- the race was going to turn out to be an absolute eyesore.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Why not? The point I was making was that he was faster on the TG's (on dirt)coming into the race than everybody except Arson Squad who is distance challenged.
It was an embarassingly bad field for a older horse Grade 1 regardless of surface.

I joked that the Suburban was the best chance Jazil would have had on the year to have any shot at another G1. Apparently this was an even easier option.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You're right. He was painfully obvious. That's why everyone that was so high on him now, was before the fact. I must have missed all of those posts. Or were they erased. It's always so easy after the fact.

I also forgot about what monsters Wanderin Boy, Half Ours and Brass hat are. Since you bring up Wanderin Boy's Whitney, where did Brass Hat finish in that one? And of course that track that the track record was set on wasn't souped up, I mean, geez the race came back so fast. And being two wide, wow. It's remarkable that he even finished the race with such a tough trip.

so I will agree that the west coast division is very sorry right now. Do you think Student Council wins the race on the old Del Mar dirt?

its not about being obvious before the race or that anyone posted it or bet on it. forget about any of that. lets say nobody saw it and we are merely trying to understand what happened. I don't know about you but whenever I'm engaged in a race that I have studied and the outcome is a total surprise I study it after the fact to try to learn. I figure if I can figure out what I missed it only makes me better down the road.

I wouldn't disparage any of Brass Hats races, as in his Whitney finish. Its a miracle he is racing at that level after I think two surgeries. The fact is he set a track record at Churchill and I doubt that it was the lone day in 37 years that Churchill has had a souped up track, and good luck in your race analysis if you ignore the racing path on the turn. I didn' say anything about a horrible trip, i simply stated the fact that he was 2 wide on the turns.

You said you're not a Lava Man guy, and also said that you think the older west coast division is weak, but I still haven't heard you say who was the more obvious horse than Student Council, that should have won the race? I have asked several times. Can you build a solid case for anyone? I have backed up my case for Student Council with speed figures and prior race review. You disagree with me so lets hear your case for any of the other horses.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I mentioned Brass Hat's Whitney, because you mentioned Wanderin Boy's Whitney. If you are going to mention one to boost your arguement, you can't leave the other out. Of course I take trip into account, but 2 wide? Aren't most horses at least 2 wide, this isn't harness racing.

I will admit that Student Council isn't as bad as I initially thought. However, he winning a race like the Pacific Classic is a tough pill to swallow. That has been my point since the beginning. I think it was because of the poly, you don't. We won't know until the next time he runs.

I can buy that Student Council might have been able to beat Lava Man on dirt. No way though that I can believe five horses including Big Booster would have beat him had the race been on dirt. No way he is worse than third and he is likely the winner if it wasn't poly.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Again, I know it is very easy now, where was your pre race analysis?

I've barely been able to find enough time in the day to cap Saratoga. Any additional time goes to the Ellis Park Pick Four long before the polycrap.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Yeah I hear that.

But I can guarantee I would have found time to fully cap and bet the race if it was still on dirt.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You and I both. But I warn you, you may get some flack from the poly guys for these awful remarks about the poly you are making. Honestly man, this is my point the whole time, the race is a bit tainted on that surface. I realize arguements can be made it would have been the same result on dirt as well, so we'll have to see.

And my whole point this whole time is that races can get "a bit tainted" for any number of reasons, and you're raising hell over the surface. Races can get "a bit tainted" because of pace meltdowns, souped up tracks, a horse breaking down, weak fields, etc, the list goes on in perpetuity.

You're just making it sound like poly is the one single factor that allowed Student Council to stumble down the lane past, the way you're talking about it, a whole group of world-beaters in a million dollar Grade I. This race was plenty tainted once that ridiculous group passed the entry box.

Some of us are looking at lots of angles as to why that could have happened, beginning at the entry box, you're going with tunnel-vision and screaming about the surface and oh how badly it hurt your eyes to even watch.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

And my whole point this whole time is that races can get "a bit tainted" for any number of reasons, and you're raising hell over the surface. Races can get "a bit tainted" because of pace meltdowns, souped up tracks, a horse breaking down, weak fields, etc, the list goes on in perpetuity.

You're just making it sound like poly is the one single factor that allowed Student Council to stumble down the lane past, the way you're talking about it, a whole group of world-beaters in a million dollar Grade I. This race was plenty tainted once that ridiculous group passed the entry box.

Some of us are looking at lots of angles as to why that could have happened, beginning at the entry box, you're going with tunnel-vision and screaming about the surface and oh how badly it hurt your eyes to even watch.

B, the surface blows. JMO.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

My opinion is that it was the surface. You disagree. Neither one of us will know for sure until that monster runs again. It should be fun to revisit it again.

Of course, you're going to be intellectually honest about it and also take into account the field Student Council faces next time, right?

Naturally, he could finish up the track on dirt against East Coast horses, and it would prove almost nothing about this race.

Just putting that out there in advance so everyone doesn't get too proud of themselves if he returns to tougher competition and doesn't duplicate this effort.