Bonds voted to All Star team

[Danzig]

bonds is a conundrum for sure. there's innocent til proven guilty, and there is the admission from the man himself that he used creams and the like, but 'didn't know' what they contained.

as for the record. it seems every major record is always called into question when there is a chance it has fallen, or will fall. seems that whenever a large-mouth bass is caught that will threaten a very long standing record, there are immediate accusations of weighting the fish. when someone shot a huge buck that might be the new record, immediately people started with accusations. it's the same in this situation.

i'd imagine that when (if?) secretariats records in the derby and belmont fall, you'll have howls of protest--look at when monarchos ran a few years ago for example!


they say records are made to be broken, but sometimes it's not very popular. people tend to shy from change, maybe this has something to do with it. but then, maybe bonds being very unpopular doesn't help. he's hard to cheer for to begin with.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

bonds is a conundrum for sure. there's innocent til proven guilty, and there is the admission from the man himself that he used creams and the like, but 'didn't know' what they contained.

as for the record. it seems every major record is always called into question when there is a chance it has fallen, or will fall. seems that whenever a large-mouth bass is caught that will threaten a very long standing record, there are immediate accusations of weighting the fish. when someone shot a huge buck that might be the new record, immediately people started with accusations. it's the same in this situation.

i'd imagine that when (if?) secretariats records in the derby and belmont fall, you'll have howls of protest--look at when monarchos ran a few years ago for example!


they say records are made to be broken, but sometimes it's not very popular. people tend to shy from change, maybe this has something to do with it. but then, maybe bonds being very unpopular doesn't help. he's hard to cheer for to begin with.

All good points in the past few posts...bottom line: Bonds would be in the HOF (assuming he has used roids) without them. He is the best player of my lifetime, you can argue the best ever...gold gloves, stolen bases AND power. We may never know the truth...but why is Bonds the one everybody wants to point fingers at? Ruth drank like a fish, Ty Cobb was a racist pig...the HOF isn't for nice guys, it's to honor achievement in the sport.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

All good points in the past few posts...bottom line: Bonds would be in the HOF (assuming he has used roids) without them. He is the best player of my lifetime, you can argue the best ever...gold gloves, stolen bases AND power. We may never know the truth...but why is Bonds the one everybody wants to point fingers at? Ruth drank like a fish, Ty Cobb was a racist pig...the HOF isn't for nice guys, it's to honor achievement in the sport.

obviously the HOF is for on field only, as plenty would be kept out due to off the field antics.
why is bonds getting the attention? because he's the one getting ready to break the record. people tend to put athletes on pedestals, the longer they've been gone, the higher the pedestal. if bonds record stands long enough, i'd imagine the next to break it will get a lot of scrutiny as well. a-rod looks like he may threaten it, he certainly isn't a favorite son.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

obviously the HOF is for on field only, as plenty would be kept out due to off the field antics.
why is bonds getting the attention? because he's the one getting ready to break the record. people tend to put athletes on pedestals, the longer they've been gone, the higher the pedestal. if bonds record stands long enough, i'd imagine the next to break it will get a lot of scrutiny as well. a-rod looks like he may threaten it, he certainly isn't a favorite son.

No, but over at Yahoo Sports today is an article talking about A-Rod breaking the record and it takes shot after shot at Bonds...the article comes right out and says that baseball will be overjoyed if A-Rod breaks the record. To me it's sad, this should be a special time in baseball...just this year we've had several accomplishments, Biggio's 3000 hits, Sosa's HR's and the best...the Rocket hitting 350 wins. Should be a great time to be a fan and yet...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

No, but over at Yahoo Sports today is an article talking about A-Rod breaking the record and it takes shot after shot at Bonds...the article comes right out and says that baseball will be overjoyed if A-Rod breaks the record. To me it's sad, this should be a special time in baseball...just this year we've had several accomplishments, Biggio's 3000 hits, Sosa's HR's and the best...the Rocket hitting 350 wins. Should be a great time to be a fan and yet...

yeah, it should be. i agree with that. as for a-rod, i doubt he'd get any real praise, he's not much more liked than bonds.
now ken griffey jr on the other hand....

i tell you, if the media takes a dislike to you, look out.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

All good points in the past few posts...bottom line: Bonds would be in the HOF (assuming he has used roids) without them. He is the best player of my lifetime, you can argue the best ever...gold gloves, stolen bases AND power. We may never know the truth...but why is Bonds the one everybody wants to point fingers at? Ruth drank like a fish, Ty Cobb was a racist pig...the HOF isn't for nice guys, it's to honor achievement in the sport.

If this makes you a bad guy then half the people on DT are scum

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If this makes you a bad guy then half the people on DT are scum

Now now, just making a point that the HOF isn't about a guy's personal life. Ruth was known as quite the party animal, I have no problem with that...his life, but there are lots of guys who have had "issues" in the HOF. People single out Bonds unfairly imo...I know it has to do with the record and his dealings with the media and fans but still...this is a great accomplishment and since baseball did (and still has done) nothing to address roids, they should celebrate it! To date, there is no more hard evidence known to the public linking Bonds to roids than Ruth or Aaron.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If this makes you a bad guy then half the people on DT are scum

I....













...oh never mind.

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

He is the best player of my lifetime, you can argue the best ever...gold gloves, stolen bases AND power.

Definitely...especially in the post season


POSTSEASON BATTING STATS
Year Team G AB R H HR RBI BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
1990 PIT 6 18 4 3 0 1 6 5 2 0 .375 .167 .167
1991 PIT 7 27 1 4 0 0 2 4 3 0 .207 .185 .148
1992 PIT 7 23 5 6 1 2 6 4 1 0 .433 .435 .261
1997 SF 3 12 0 3 0 2 0 3 1 0 .231 .417 .250
2000 SF 4 17 2 3 0 1 3 4 1 0 .300 .353 .176
2002 SF 17 45 18 16 8 16 27 6 0 1 .581 .978 .356
2003 SF 4 9 3 2 0 2 8 0 1 0 .556 .333 .222
TOTALS: 48 151 33 37 9 24 52 26 9 1 .433 .503 .245

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

they say records are made to be broken, but sometimes it's not very popular. people tend to shy from change, maybe this has something to do with it. but then, maybe bonds being very unpopular doesn't help. he's hard to cheer for to begin with.

I think this makes it easier for the writers to tee off on him. I'm not passing judgement either way but it is easier to be negative about a bad guy than a good guy.

Just look at the Lance Armstrong situation. There is virtually no chance that he did what he did and was clean since the entire biking world was doping and the fact he was prescribed EPO during his cancer treatment. But he was a sympathetic figure who raises money for cancer. People are certainly more willing to give him a pass than Barry.

[PeteMugg]

Chuck, you beat me to it, but I was going to mention that Bonds has probably faced a lot of pitchers that are on the juice.

Juice, equipment, stadiums ... it's very difficult to compare one era to another. Aaron had a number to shoot at and so does Barry. I'm not a fan of the guy, but I give Bonds credit he can flat hit the ball.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by PeteMugg

Chuck, you beat me to it, but I was going to mention that Bonds has probably faced a lot of pitchers that are on the juice.

Juice, equipment, stadiums ... it's very difficult to compare one era to another. Aaron had a number to shoot at and so does Barry. I'm not a fan of the guy, but I give Bonds credit he can flat hit the ball.

He is a tremendous player that is a prick. He doesn't even try to act like a nice guy. But his achievements are monumental even if you want to downgrade them because of the era he did them in. Though anyone who thinks he is a better hitter than Babe Ruth needs to look at the numbers again

[Danzig]

how many games did it take ruth and aaron to get their records? how many seasons? and how many games a year did they play? certainly not 160-odd like now.
not that it matters. najran shares the mile record with dr fager, who carried a lot more weight...

bonds is definitely not concered with PR. no doubt he dries his tears with hundred dollar bills! i'd rather there not be a cloud of suspicion about it, but his own words and actions have contributed somewhat to that.

how much grief did aaron get on the way to breaking ruths' record? i do remember when ripken broke gehrigs string of starts, people started complaining when he kept starting and adding to his record-i found that bizarre. and that was for a much more popular player. there's no pleasing some.

[PeteMugg]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He is a tremendous player that is a prick. He doesn't even try to act like a nice guy. But his achievements are monumental even if you want to downgrade them because of the era he did them in. Though anyone who thinks he is a better hitter than Babe Ruth needs to look at the numbers again

Too many intangibles to try to compare and numbers can be thrown out to favor them all. But Ruth was so far ahead when he was playing, I think that speaks volumes.

[Danzig]

can't help wondering if the training regimens, sports medicine know-how, etc, was available to ruth, what could he have accomplished?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

can't help wondering if the training regimens, sports medicine know-how, etc, was available to ruth, what could he have accomplished?

Of course his opponents would have had the same advantages.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by PeteMugg

Too many intangibles to try to compare and numbers can be thrown out to favor them all. But Ruth was so far ahead when he was playing, I think that speaks volumes.

Exactly...Ruth never faced a slider or split finger fastball, never faced dominant closers etc.
Ruth...2503 games, 8933 ab, 2873 hits, 506 doubles, 136 triples, 714 hr, 2213 rbi, 2174 runs, 2062 bb, 1330 so, unknown sb (couldn't find), .342 ave
Bonds...2934 games, 9704 ab, 2901 hits, 597 doubles, 77 triples, 751 hr, 1972 rbi, 2196 runs, 2512 bb, 1517 so, 514 sb, .299 ave.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Exactly...Ruth never faced a slider or split finger fastball, never faced dominant closers etc.
Ruth...2503 games, 8933 ab, 2873 hits, 506 doubles, 136 triples, 714 hr, 2213 rbi, 2174 runs, 2062 bb, 1330 so, unknown sb (couldn't find), .342 ave
Bonds...2934 games, 9704 ab, 2901 hits, 597 doubles, 77 triples, 751 hr, 1972 rbi, 2196 runs, 2512 bb, 1517 so, 514 sb, .299 ave.

He also played in a league with 8 teams not against AAA pitchers like today. And dont forget that the spitball was still legal for some pitchers to throw. If you compare them to the players of thier eras there is no doubt who the superior player is.