INVASOR: Injury ends career

[GenuineRisk]

Well, at least I don't have to stress about how to sneak out of setting up for my friend's engagement party so I can get to Belmont in time for the Suburban.

: I'd rather have stressed. Ah well. It was fun while it lasted. Thanks Invasor. You're still da beeeeessssst...

[miraja2]

Wow! I can't believe it. I was out-of-town yesterday and just read about this now. That really sucks. He was a good one, and I don't think it is too much of an exaggeration to say that the handicap division is a complete joke now without him.

[RolloTomasi]

What about Lava Man? And Flashy Bull and Papi Chullo have improved leaps and bounds in recent weeks.

[sumitas]

I'd prefer to say the division is wide open. Papi Chullo is passing on the Suburban but it still has a great field with Corinthian and Sun King and more.

welcome to the board Rollo.

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

What about Lava Man? And Flashy Bull and Papi Chullo have improved leaps and bounds in recent weeks.

Lava Man can win the BCC.....in 2008 when it's at Santa Anita.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

What about Lava Man? And Flashy Bull and Papi Chullo have improved leaps and bounds in recent weeks.

you're using these horses to argue that the handicap division isn't a joke??

lava man will be a force out west, but that's it. hate to think tho that flashy bull and papi are the best we have to look forward to.

maybe sun king will finally get his gr 1. joy

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Danzig

maybe sun king will finally get his gr 1. joy

Sun King could get a gr 1 in an extended sprint, but he's an ordinary bridesmaid around two turns. Too bad the Forego and Vosburgh are no longer 7 furlongs.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Sun King could get a gr 1 in an extended sprint, but he's an ordinary bridesmaid around two turns. Too bad the Forego and Vosburgh are no longer 7 furlongs.

The Forego is 7F.

[SentToStud]

I wish the Jockey Club GC was still 2 miles. And I wish the Marlboro Cup was, well, anything at all. Those were the days. The summer handicaps and then the fall weight for age races.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The Forego is 7F.

I mispoke there as I had it in my head that it was still 6 1/2 furlongs. Seeing how its on the same day as the Woodward, for the twice the money, and with all the recent hits to the division, it would be a miracle if Nick Zito even gives it a passing thought. Its probably penciled in for stablemate Commentator anyways.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

What about Lava Man? And Flashy Bull and Papi Chullo have improved leaps and bounds in recent weeks.

I have to disagree with you on a couple of fronts here.
1) I don't think Flashy Bull has improved "leaps and bounds" in recent weeks. Over two months ago he stalked some allowance horses and pounced on them on the turn to win and post a 105 Beyer Speed Figure. Then in the Foster he did the same thing........and posted another 105. In between those two races, he defeated the mighty Hesanoldsalt by a head while actually getting weight from Old Salty that day. He is a decent horse, but I just don't see any real improvement over the last two months.
2) Lava Man? He has a very good career in SoCal, but he has never been able to win outside of that place, and the fact that he lost his most recent start there MIGHT indicate that he is begining to slip a little.
3) Papi Chullo? No.

I agree with Danzig in that pointing to these three as the examples of why the handicap division is not a joke, isn't particularly convincing in my opinion.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by miraja2

I have to disagree with you on a couple of fronts here.
1) I don't think Flashy Bull has improved "leaps and bounds" in recent weeks. Over two months ago he stalked some allowance horses and pounced on them on the turn to win and post a 105 Beyer Speed Figure. Then in the Foster he did the same thing........and posted another 105. In between those two races, he defeated the mighty Hesanoldsalt by a head while actually getting weight from Old Salty that day. He is a decent horse, but I just don't see any real improvement over the last two months.
2) Lava Man? He has a very good career in SoCal, but he has never been able to win outside of that place, and the fact that he lost his most recent start there MIGHT indicate that he is begining to slip a little.
3) Papi Chullo? No.

I agree with Danzig in that pointing to these three as the examples of why the handicap division is not a joke, isn't particularly convincing in my opinion.

Flashy Bull couldn't find the winner's circle at all last year, so the mere fact he's strung a few wins together this year suggests he's improved. He's a typical mismanaged colt that was repeatedly run over his head while still holding allowance conditions last year. Had they let him develop properly last year, he might already have been a top horse in the division at the start of the season.

Papi Chullo is an even more extreme example of a mismanaged horse, perhaps one of the worst in history. As a maiden he finished second in the Sham, a gr 3 at Santa Anita over 9 furlongs. In that race, he finished ahead of future Derby winner Giacomo amongst other future stakes horses. Now that he's in much more sensible hands, maybe we'll get to see the full potential of a horse who was always meant to be a good one. Hopefully, at age 5, its not too late, and certainly his last two place him several lengths above second tier stakes horses like Hesanoldsalt and AP Arrow.

I think Lava Man is on the decline, too, but still, given his race record and Beyer figures, you have to consider him a real beast. Honestly, I think the Stud TNT horse is going to dethrone him Saturday, and will be a major player the rest of the year.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Flashy Bull couldn't find the winner's circle at all last year, so the mere fact he's strung a few wins together this year suggests he's improved. He's a typical mismanaged colt that was repeatedly run over his head while still holding allowance conditions last year. Had they let him develop properly last year, he might already have been a top horse in the division at the start of the season.

Papi Chullo is an even more extreme example of a mismanaged horse, perhaps one of the worst in history. As a maiden he finished second in the Sham, a gr 3 at Santa Anita over 9 furlongs. In that race, he finished ahead of future Derby winner Giacomo amongst other future stakes horses. Now that he's in much more sensible hands, maybe we'll get to see the full potential of a horse who was always meant to be a good one. Hopefully, at age 5, its not too late, and certainly his last two place him several lengths above second tier stakes horses like Hesanoldsalt and AP Arrow.

I think Lava Man is on the decline, too, but still, given his race record and Beyer figures, you have to consider him a real beast. Honestly, I think the Stud TNT horse is going to dethrone him Saturday, and will be a major player the rest of the year.

Papi Chullo is in a barn that often has marked improvement when they get a horse, but it rarely lasts. Flashy Bull is better than he was last year, as he should be as a 4 yer old, but I would hesitate to call him much more than fortunate to be in good form in a pitiful year for older horses. Lava Man seems to have lost a step but he really has done enough.

[gamblin4ever]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

What about Lava Man? And Flashy Bull and Papi Chullo have improved leaps and bounds in recent weeks.

Top 3 horses of the older division @ time of injury was Invasor,Invasor,and Invasor..lol No other horse could run with him,especially at the Classic dist.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by gamblin4ever

Top 3 horses of the older division @ time of injury was Invasor,Invasor,and Invasor..lol No other horse could run with him,especially at the Classic dist.

No doubt that Invasor was the tops of the division, but I'm not suddenly feeling this gaping hole that's been left in the American dirt racing scene.

If there was a hole, its been there since February. Invasor was slated to make at most 3 more starts. A race like the Dubai World Cup, for all the excitement it generates for a single day, really is a detriment to the season as a whole, as the trip involved usually puts the participants out of commission for a significant period of time whether by design or out of necessity. The race, when you get down to it, is practically a tailored novelty (kind of like Cigar's Citation Challenge in '96) that seeks to be a seasonal championship event just when the racing year is getting warmed up. For the most part, its influence has a negative impact on American racing, either by leading to early retirement or compromising the domestic campaigns in the States of top level horses.

Invasor was going to run in 4 horse fields a couple of more times before attempting a second BC Classic, which would have been his only significant start aside from the Dubai race. But racing is a year long event and really Invasor was not going to play much of a part during the year other than at the bookends. The weight of his absence was already very much in tow even before the injury.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

No doubt that Invasor was the tops of the division, but I'm not suddenly feeling this gaping hole that's been left in the American dirt racing scene.

If there was a hole, its been there since February. Invasor was slated to make at most 3 more starts. A race like the Dubai World Cup, for all the excitement it generates for a single day, really is a detriment to the season as a whole, as the trip involved usually puts the participants out of commission for a significant period of time whether by design or out of necessity. The race, when you get down to it, is practically a tailored novelty (kind of like Cigar's Citation Challenge in '96) that seeks to be a seasonal championship event just when the racing year is getting warmed up. For the most part, its influence has a negative impact on American racing, either by leading to early retirement or compromising the domestic campaigns in the States of top level horses.

Invasor was going to run in 4 horse fields a couple of more times before attempting a second BC Classic, which would have been his only significant start aside from the Dubai race. But racing is a year long event and really Invasor was not going to play much of a part during the year other than at the bookends. The weight of his absence was already very much in tow even before the injury.

Very good point.

[Cannon Shell]

I think that the horses hurt the most are Street Sense and Curlin. I say that because if they were to defeat Invasor or even lose to him in a close race it would give them some historical legitimacy. He was the measuring stick that they could be judged on. Now that he is gone the older horse division is such a wreck that there will always be questions over just how good they were considering they both are very unlikely to run at 4.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

No doubt that Invasor was the tops of the division, but I'm not suddenly feeling this gaping hole that's been left in the American dirt racing scene.

If there was a hole, its been there since February. Invasor was slated to make at most 3 more starts. A race like the Dubai World Cup, for all the excitement it generates for a single day, really is a detriment to the season as a whole, as the trip involved usually puts the participants out of commission for a significant period of time whether by design or out of necessity. The race, when you get down to it, is practically a tailored novelty (kind of like Cigar's Citation Challenge in '96) that seeks to be a seasonal championship event just when the racing year is getting warmed up. For the most part, its influence has a negative impact on American racing, either by leading to early retirement or compromising the domestic campaigns in the States of top level horses.

Invasor was going to run in 4 horse fields a couple of more times before attempting a second BC Classic, which would have been his only significant start aside from the Dubai race. But racing is a year long event and really Invasor was not going to play much of a part during the year other than at the bookends. The weight of his absence was already very much in tow even before the injury.

couldn't disagree more.
Invasors departure leaves a huge hole this year in my mind. he wasn't only at the top of the division, he was a horse with rare qualities.
the campaign for this years breeders cup classic seems much less exciting to me now. the possibility of Invasor running the table two years in a row and repeating in the BCC classic was huge for me and I suspect many others. I was also really looking forward to seeing how this years crop of top three year olds would fare against the big guy this fall.

True, Invasor may have only missed three races due to injury, but for me they were very important and exciting races. By the way, I wouldn't call the races he had on his agenda exactly insignificant. I wanted to see him step up a bit more in the historical sense and a repeat in the BCC would have put him in rare company.
BTW, the Dubai World Cup is not some novelty day of excitement. from a quality standpoint this past DWC was on par with any breeders cup offering. the racing year doesn't warm up at the same time world-wide, there are more than one racing seasons.

[miraja2]

As I write this there have been 79 replies to the thread about Invasor being retired, and 124 replies to the thread about Scat Daddy being retired.
Does that seem a bit backwards to anybody else?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

couldn't disagree more.
Invasors departure leaves a huge hole this year in my mind. he wasn't only at the top of the division, he was a horse with rare qualities.
the campaign for this years breeders cup classic seems much less exciting to me now. the possibility of Invasor running the table two years in a row and repeating in the BCC classic was huge for me and I suspect many others. I was also really looking forward to seeing how this years crop of top three year olds would fare against the big guy this fall.

True, Invasor may have only missed three races due to injury, but for me they were very important and exciting races. By the way, I wouldn't call the races he had on his agenda exactly insignificant. I wanted to see him step up a bit more in the historical sense and a repeat in the BCC would have put him in rare company.
BTW, the Dubai World Cup is not some novelty day of excitement. from a quality standpoint this past DWC was on par with any breeders cup offering. the racing year doesn't warm up at the same time world-wide, there are more than one racing seasons.

Well my point more or less was that the hole was already there. It is late June and Invasor has not run in this country since the Donn. His win in Dubai, however heroic, was more or less moot as far as this season goes. He beat a ex-patriate in Premium Tap (who prior to his big Clark win was basically a rogue upstart anyways) and a still unproven, hyped talent in Discreet Cat, whom they are desperate to never bring out of the barn again. Had he run in the Suburban and Woodward, you could pretty much bank on small, exhibition-like fields that have typically plagued Belmont's fall championship season (eg Mineshaft's or Bernardini's JC Gold Cups) with the advent of alternative, purse-padded, BC "preps" (Hawthorne Gold Cup, Kentucky Cup Classic, etc). Thus, those races, while at least showcasing Invasor, would basically prove nothing other than the horse was sound and in competitive form.

I agree with the Sha Tin guy that basically Invasor was only significant as far as the 2007 season goes as a measuring stick for the more nationally active 3yos.

As far as the DWC goes, I don't particularly hold the BC Classic in high regard either, as it often proves to be anti-climactic. At least Dubai tends to have intriguing match ups, though mostly with the addition of turf horses who may or may not take to the dirt. But all the same it is untimely in that none of the horses have sorted themselves out for the current year and are basically invited based on accomplishments in the preceding season, not on current form. In that regard, it would be better to run the race in December, where participants could have adequate rest for the upcoming year or retire prior to the breeding season.

I don't really recall a DWC that was much of a revelation for the unfolding season aside from the '98 version, when Silver Charm held off Swain's repeated challenges. But any tip of Swain's hand as far as his main track prowess goes was ultimately rendered pointless by Frankie Dettori's violent, unprofessional, and egomaniacal ride in the BC.