Gorbachev: Iraq

[johnny pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

As I stated before, the situation is far more complex than the information that is released for public consumption. To reduce the situation to sound bytes by either source of information is silly. As a matter of fact, in my not so educated opinion about the whole deal, our insistence on knowing the "truth" publically probably causes as much damage as the enemy.

what are we supposed to do, wear blinkers like a race horse ? ignore it ? pretend its right? i consider myself pretty informed considering i've been over there and served 4 years in the navy. number one, the people in most of the middle east do not trust us. 2 , the war on terrorism is a joke its like declaring war on crime or drugs, you can't have a war against a behavior. 3, these morons HAVE BEEN FIGHTING OVER RELIGION FOR CENTURIES because the good old usa got into it things are not going to change, we just made it worse. fighting for our freedom is a lame excuse to give these kids and its just propaganda. these idiots can't run a country let alone take over ours. why do you think they are run by religion and dictators or royals? yet they are fighting for my freedom thats funny because no mlitary force has ever even attempted to invade us ever . the best they have is suicide bombs and hijacking planes, wow , what an armory. yet all these fools in the U.S are scared, of what ,i don;t even know. I have a better chance of getting hit by lightning or a car wreck 3 times over. but " OH God look out for those big bad terrorist, they are coming to get you and your family" give me a break. finally and this is the biggest point , i am sick and tired of our country being the police of the world on its own, read some history, that has been the downfall of every empire. we spend way too much time,money, lives to get our noses in everything and to influence outcomes. then all the morons sit in their lazy boys at home and wonder why others hate us. go live in one of these hell hole countries for awhile. dead bodies in the street ,bombs ,gunplay, smoke and burning fires ,no electricity or water. to top it off soldiers invading and walking your streets 24/7. people here cry if their dvd player doesn't work. if people think the current strategy is working go to local recruiters office step up , sign up and shut up. in my opinion the only thing they care about is the money their making off this travesty !

Originally Posted by johnny pinwheel

1.yet they are fighting for my freedom thats funny because no mlitary force has ever even attempted to invade us ever .


2. i am sick and tired of our country being the police of the world on its own, read some history, that has been the downfall of every empire.

Point 1. Even the War of 1812?

Point 2. I am also. But when something like the holocaust occurs we let it go?
If we were not in Iraq right now, I am convinced that we would be doing more in Africa. This is very difficult. Innoncent people being slaughtered just does not sit well with me. The world is not as big a place as it used to be... events in what seem like a remote place has more of an effect on the world as a whole than it ever has.

And also: Was going into Afghanistan a mistake also? Think back to what was going on when we decided to go into Afghanistan. At that time, was it a mistake? Because if it was, you are one of the very few people in Western Civilization that believed this.

And lastly: I apologize for prodding discussion. I just like to know what people think. It helps me get a better picture of how people feel and I learn something.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Point 1. Even the War of 1812?

Point 2. I am also. But when something like the holocaust occurs we let it go?
If we were not in Iraq right now, I am convinced that we would be doing more in Africa. This is very difficult. Innoncent people being slaughtered just does not sit well with me. The world is not as big a place as it used to be... events in what seem like a remote place has more of an effect on the world as a whole than it ever has.

And also: Was going into Afghanistan a mistake also? Think back to what was going on when we decided to go into Afghanistan. At that time, was it a mistake? Because if it was, you are one of the very few people in Western Civilization that believed this.

And lastly: I apologize for prodding discussion. I just like to know what people think. It helps me get a better picture of how people feel and I learn something.

Pat....case in point being Ethiopia. Im not a big fan of continually writing that "government" blank checks when the atrocities that the members of the Ethiopian army are reigning down on the citizens of that country. But as long as the US Government continues to use them as an ally against the radical muslims in the surrounding areas, we are screwed.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by GPK

Pat....case in point being Ethiopia. Im not a big fan of continually writing that "government" blank checks when the atrocities that the members of the Ethiopian army are reigning down on the citizens of that country. But as long as the US Government continues to use them as an ally against the radical muslims in the surrounding areas, we are screwed.

Have a better option?

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Have a better option?

Is there even a better option Chuck? I think the possibilty of other options exist, but they may not always be the most popular ones. We (the US) have aligned ourselves with Ethiopia for the time being by the financial support we offer them. I dont have a problem with us really giving them the help they need, IF they would treat the citizens of their country in some kind of civilized manner. No decent human being deserves to be treated the way that some of these people are.

Ethiopia has been a great source of support in helping with the fight against radical muslims....but there is still the violating of basic human rights that I don't agree with.

[Mortimer]

Well ya know,Bob...I don't really think so.

[Cajungator26]

Every time I think of Ethiopians, I think of Starvin' Marvin in South Park.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by mortimerdexterfoxworthy

Well ya know,Bob...I don't really think so.

Bob? Not sure what you're talking about, but I was going to agree with the last couple of sentences in you previous post. One of the few times that something you said seemed to make sense, Morty.
Wow! This thread has been all around the planet, Iraq, Afghanistan, Ethiopia,
Sudan, and of course, Gorby's home country where this thread began.
So...how do we solve this mess without going back to the War of 1812 and still preserve the principles stated in the Declaration of Independence on which this country was founded?
The KEY just might be Albania. Yup! You heard me.
They really like our beloved president. Did you see how they greeted him?
My guess is that if they are granted membership in NATO, Albania will become a major player in world affairs.
Albania leads! The rest of the world follows!

Originally Posted by GPK

Pat....case in point being Ethiopia. Im not a big fan of continually writing that "government" blank checks when the atrocities that the members of the Ethiopian army are reigning down on the citizens of that country. But as long as the US Government continues to use them as an ally against the radical muslims in the surrounding areas, we are screwed.

The Ethopians are ***** cats compared to the Sudanese and their mad henchmen. I dont particularly like it either Kev. But right now they are the only group that is putting a complete slaughter on hold. No one else is. The UN and NATO will do nothing until some sort of stability comes about.

I really dont have a clue as to what should be done other than put big pressure on China to do something.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Point 1. Even the War of 1812?

Point 2. I am also. But when something like the holocaust occurs we let it go?
If we were not in Iraq right now, I am convinced that we would be doing more in Africa. This is very difficult. Innoncent people being slaughtered just does not sit well with me. The world is not as big a place as it used to be... events in what seem like a remote place has more of an effect on the world as a whole than it ever has.

And also: Was going into Afghanistan a mistake also? Think back to what was going on when we decided to go into Afghanistan. At that time, was it a mistake? Because if it was, you are one of the very few people in Western Civilization that believed this.

And lastly: I apologize for prodding discussion. I just like to know what people think. It helps me get a better picture of how people feel and I learn something.

Write me down as another who believe it was a mistake.

What the hell good came of it?

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Write me down as another who believe it was a mistake.

What the hell good came of it?

It is really easy to be against something after the events have played out.

So at the time we went in to Afghanistan, you rejected the entire EU's opinion (even France) also? Just you and Congressman Ron Paul. No seriously, look back at the votes. AT THE TIME, I can remember only a handful speaking out against our Afghanistan foray. After the fact its so easy.

Put yourself in a position of power at that time, in this country and you would have said no... right after 9/11 and the fact the Taliban told us they would protect Osama Bin Laden, come and get him... you would have told your constituents leave the Taliban alone, they good people. Let Osama roam, we cant get the guy. You would have told this to NY city and the families, and the nation. You are a brave man with a crystal ball I dont have.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by pgardn

It is really easy to be against something after the events have played out.

So at the time we went in to Afghanistan, you rejected the entire EU's opinion (even France) also? Just you and Congressman Ron Paul. No seriously, look back at the votes. AT THE TIME, I can remember only a handful speaking out against our Afghanistan foray. After the fact its so easy.

Put yourself in a position of power at that time, in this country and you would have said no... right after 9/11 and the fact the Taliban told us they would protect Osama Bin Laden, come and get him... you would have told your constituents leave the Taliban alone, they good people. Let Osama roam, we cant get the guy. You would have told this to NY city and the families, and the nation. You are a brave man with a crystal ball I dont have.

No, not true. I fully expected the Afghanistan foray to fail. I've never been to Afghanistan but I have been to Turkey and Armenia and the terrain there is similar and it is such that it's impossible to find anyone. You can look for miles in any direction and see nothing but rocks. I just remember thinking, "they'll never find bin Laden."

I would have been all for bin Laden's assasination but by covert means. Frankly, I assume we've been trying that as well for years and no luck there either.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

No, not true. I fully expected the Afghanistan foray to fail. I've never been to Afghanistan but I have been to Turkey and Armenia and the terrain there is similar and it is such that it's impossible to find anyone. You can look for miles in any direction and see nothing but rocks. I just remember thinking, "they'll never find bin Laden."

I would have been all for bin Laden's assasination but by covert means. Frankly, I assume we've been trying that as well for years and no luck there either.

Morty again attempts to hijack a thread with drool and spittle. Morty you can go off on a tangent concerning foreign affairs and policy. But leaving pure saliva behind to dry is getting old. If you want to be entertaining, the routine has got to evolve. Your trampling the same grass over and over. Its dead.

SS. We had him. We had Bin Laden dead. And the decision to let some locals go in and root him out ruined it. So in this case if we had just been brutal and brushed aside local "intervention" he would be a dead man. Not that it would change anything. Just like the capture of Sadam, it did nothing to rectify the broader picture.
And the success in getting rid of the Taliban for a while was immense. But our little foray into Iraq took away much of the success we did have in Afghanistan. So this looks like another situation that is not good that might have been without our extra big problems. I would not have known this at the time. So you are ahead of me.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Morty again attempts to hijack a thread with drool and spittle. Morty you can go off on a tangent concerning foreign affairs and policy. But leaving pure saliva behind to dry is getting old. If you want to be entertaining, the routine has got to evolve. Your trampling the same grass over and over. Its dead.

SS. We had him. We had Bin Laden dead. And the decision to let some locals go in and root him out ruined it. So in this case if we had just been brutal and brushed aside local "intervention" he would be a dead man. Not that it would change anything. Just like the capture of Sadam, it did nothing to rectify the broader picture.
And the success in getting rid of the Taliban for a while was immense. But our little foray into Iraq took away much of the success we did have in Afghanistan. So this looks like another situation that is not good that might have been without our extra big problems. I would not have known this at the time. So you are ahead of me.

You leave Ray alone ...FUCl<O!