Librarians, Keepers of the Liberty

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Here is how I see it. All other things being equal, hardworking, intelligent, etc... the probability of experiencing the max. benefits in this country would go to... white males. I will add this is MUCH less a factor than it used to be. But it is still true. If it is not, give me the ethnicity and sex of a person, all other things being equal, that has a better chance. I have put out this challenge, and no hermaphrodites of Haitan descent have come forward and claimed that they have a clear advantage of experiencing the max. benefits this country has to give.

Take a gander at corporate America, Political offices, etc... places of what many would consider power.

Really everyone ask themselves why everyone of our presidents has been white and male, and most professed Christians. Its not numbers, there are just as many females as males...

I see this as profoundly obvious, no matter how distasteful it is.

And Bold One I really mean PROFOUNDLY OBVIOUS.

Hey lets do horses... The people who really run the industry. Owners, trainers, and breeders. I guess they are mostly females of Pacific Island descent.

Yes, so far the presidents have all been white and male. That will change in the next twenty years or so, in my opinion we'll see a women and possibly a black or hispanic president. Where is the big conspiracy with regard to keeping the president white? How does it work? I thought the president was elected by all the people, all races and genders. Since there are more women then men, why don't they just elect a women for president? There are a lot of women and minorities out there pulling the lever in the voting booth for white males.

Question: what are the maximum benefits that you refer to that this country offers? I didn't know that there are different benefit packages. I'm a white male and I think I may have missed the line where they were handing out these maximium benefits that others don't get.

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Yes, so far the presidents have all been white and male. That will change in the next twenty years or so, in my opinion we'll see a women and possibly a black or hispanic president. Where is the big conspiracy with regard to keeping the president white? How does it work? I thought the president was elected by all the people, all races and genders. Since there are more women then men, why don't they just elect a women for president? There are a lot of women and minorities out there pulling the lever in the voting booth for white males.

Question: what are the maximum benefits that you refer to that this country offers? I didn't know that there are different benefit packages. I'm a white male and I think I may have missed the line where they were handing out these maximium benefits that others don't get.

Since I do not know what you do Arljim I will explain what I do. I now teach Physics. I use to work in a Molecular Biology lab. I have done a little computer programming on the side for people in business when personal computers were first getting started and was offered numerous jobs. If I had been born black instead of white I am sure I would have not had the same offers in any of these adventures. Positive. And there is much more, but it is all ancedotal.
So all the opportunities that have come your way... it would not make a difference what color or sex you are?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Since I do not know what you do Arljim I will explain what I do. I now teach Physics. I use to work in a Molecular Biology lab. I have done a little computer programming on the side for people in business when personal computers were first getting started and was offered numerous jobs. If I had been born black instead of white I am sure I would have not had the same offers in any of these adventures. Positive. And there is much more, but it is all ancedotal.
So all the opportunities that have come your way... it would not make a difference what color or sex you are?

So your teaching position was just handed to you when there were equally qualified people of color and women applying for the same position?
In my case I know I definitely earned my pay and position. I don't know why a person of color couldn't have done the same.

I have a technical position in the private sector. I have not witnessed the type of discrimination that you claim is the norm across the country. The people that cut it work hard, have good attitudes, and have skills.

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

So your teaching position was just handed to you when there were equally qualified people of color and women applying for the same position?

Now its gonna get interesting. This could lead down a path where the answers will vary widely. We might get down to the Why. And this will illustrate some very different views.

There were no applicants of other ethnic groups for Science positions. None. Zero. In fact, sitting in on interviews with applicants for science positions for about 12 years now, the vast majority of these applicants are clearly white and male. Females on the rise however.
I have seen zero black applicants. I have never been on a faculty with a black science teacher. The approximate racial breadown of the students in these schools would be 40% Hispanic, 40% White, 20% Black. The school I teach at presently (a burb school) would go about 55% White, 35% Hispanic, 10% Black. The Schools I have taught at average about 3000 students. The current school well over 3000 students.

Interesting pattern. In fact in all my upper division and graduate level science courses (these were small classes at a very large institution, University of Texas) there were zero black students... I get the Newsletter from the school of Natural Sciences at UT. They give you an update on the diff. graduate students and professors and what they are researching. Zero black students. Zero black professors. More females than my day. My GUESS is there are no black applicants for faculity or graduate students.

Why the obvious discrepancy in numbers? Black people hate science?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Now its gonna get interesting. This could lead down a path where the answers will vary widely. We might get down to the Why. And this will illustrate some very different views.

There were no applicants of other ethnic groups for Science positions. None. Zero. In fact, sitting in on interviews with applicants for science positions for about 12 years now, the vast majority of these applicants are clearly white and male. Females on the rise however.
I have seen zero black applicants. I have never been on a faculty with a black science teacher. The approximate racial breadown of the students in these schools would be 40% Hispanic, 40% White, 20% Black. The school I teach at presently (a burb school) would go about 55% White, 35% Hispanic, 10% Black. The Schools I have taught at average about 3000 students. The current school well over 3000 students.

Interesting pattern. In fact in all my upper division and graduate level science courses (these were small classes at a very large institution, University of Texas) there were zero black students... I get the Newsletter from the school of Natural Sciences at UT. They give you an update on the diff. graduate students and professors and what they are researching. Zero black students. Zero black professors. More females than my day. My GUESS is there are no black applicants for faculity or graduate students.

Why the obvious discrepancy in numbers? Black people hate science?

Previously you said that if you were black you would not have been given the offers that came your way during your life. How do you know that? Based on what you just said above there were no applicants for the science positions from ethnic groups so it couldn't have been racial favoritism that won you the position versus the other non-ethnic applicants.

To me the question is why were there no ethnic candidates. Same with the president or corporate america examples you gave. Where are the candidates?
I think the answers are complex and are not simply answered by claiming that we have a society that is biased towards white males.

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Previously you said that if you were black you would not have been given the offers that came your way during your life. How do you know that? Based on what you just said above there were no applicants for the science positions from ethnic groups so it couldn't have been racial favoritism that won you the position versus the other non-ethnic applicants.

To me the question is why were there no ethnic candidates. Same with the president or corporate america examples you gave. Where are the candidates?
I think the answers are complex and are not simply answered by claiming that we have a society that is biased towards white males.

Ok here we go. Where are the candidates? Where are the young up and comers from other ethnic groups, especially blacks in the cases I have mentioned? I dont think it is going very deep into a question as you have stated.
And I keep with my initial claim. It gets very interesting now. If I stick to what I am saying, something is happening at an earlier age than you are looking at. What is it? And I am not trying to be Socrates, what is it?

In fact I would ask everyone on the board if a person of color has an equal chance of being successful, all other things being equal, in their personal areas of employment. Kev, the golf pro. I cannot see a black female golf pro rubbing it up with all the fellas after a few rounds. Oracle, still the same accessebility to owners (from the get go, without already establishing onself) and trainers? I have already stated there is a dearth of black science teachers in my realm. All you guys in the horse business... if you where black and female, equal opportunity from the get go? None of this if you work hard and establish your credibility... from the beginning... getting in the door.

[irishtrekker]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Ok here we go. Where are the candidates? Where are the young up and comers from other ethnic groups, especially blacks in the cases I have mentioned? I dont think it is going very deep into a question as you have stated.
And I keep with my initial claim. It gets very interesting now. If I stick to what I am saying, something is happening at an earlier age than you are looking at. What is it? And I am not trying to be Socrates, what is it?

In fact I would ask everyone on the board if a person of color has an equal chance of being successful, all other things being equal, in their personal areas of employment. Kev, the golf pro. I cannot see a black female golf pro rubbing it up with all the fellas after a few rounds. Oracle, still the same accessebility to owners (from the get go, without already establishing onself) and trainers? I have already stated there is a dearth of black science teachers in my realm. All you guys in the horse business... if you where black and female, equal opportunity from the get go? None of this if you work hard and establish your credibility... from the beginning... getting in the door.

Pgarden, I understand what you're saying about academics and would be really interested in continuing the discussion with you, but maybe in another thread or via email? This one's getting a little nasty for me. My husband spent awhile studying these issues and working with disadvantaged youth to try opening up access to higher institutions, and I have some experience and thoughts myself on the matter. Anyway, if you're interested, let me know. Not sure I can provide any huge insight, but it's something that troubles me a lot, precisely because the roots are so embedded in so many socioeconomic factors that solutions seem difficult to parse.

Originally Posted by pgardn

Ok here we go. Where are the candidates? Where are the young up and comers from other ethnic groups, especially blacks in the cases I have mentioned? I dont think it is going very deep into a question as you have stated.
And I keep with my initial claim. It gets very interesting now. If I stick to what I am saying, something is happening at an earlier age than you are looking at. What is it? And I am not trying to be Socrates, what is it?

In fact I would ask everyone on the board if a person of color has an equal chance of being successful, all other things being equal, in their personal areas of employment. Kev, the golf pro. I cannot see a black female golf pro rubbing it up with all the fellas after a few rounds. Oracle, still the same accessebility to owners (from the get go, without already establishing onself) and trainers? I have already stated there is a dearth of black science teachers in my realm. All you guys in the horse business... if you where black and female, equal opportunity from the get go? None of this if you work hard and establish your credibility... from the beginning... getting in the door.

Patrick you are completely off base although I know you probably don't mean to be. The thought that I ever had accessibility to anything is a joke. I don't come from a silver spoon upbringing, very far from it. As a kid I used to help out a paperboy in the neighborhood and do his route when he went on vacation. AFter I turned 12 and was old enough to get my own route, I did. Then I had a morning paper route to go with the one after school. Mowed lawns, raked leaves, shoveled snow(back before everyone owned a snow blower they would pay a kid like me 1 or 2 dollars to shovel their snow). Got a job(as a telemarketer, sucked) the day I turned 16 and could do that. Had a partial scholarship at college and hustled the rest. Drove wrecks of cars that sometimes were held together with duct tape around a broken electrical line. Nothing was handed to me, ever. I had "acess" because I met a guy who had heard I could really cap the ponies and needed a pik-6 connection in NY because he was a maverick that loved to play carryovers and back when I met him there wasnt account betting or simulcasting everywhere. You had to have a guy in that state that could the bet down and NY was a good carryover place. He'd wire me the money to make the bet on a carryover and we would talk over what we were playing and I would get 5%. Later on he became an eclipse winning owner and I got to meet trainers and players from being with him all the time. So you can't even say I caught a break there, I performed hard for the guy with hard work, thats the only reason I got there in the first place. Even after that it was a struggle for a long time. Business is ripe with old money and inherited money guys who frown upon people who didnt have their shrimp peeled for them when they were kids.
I really fail to see how a minority could have had it any tougher than I did, other than I didn't get called racial epithets but heck being from the sticks where I was bussed into school with many rich kids I was called things just as bad. You are off base heer Patrick and I think your generalization on teh whole matter regarding opportunity stinks.