Poly Prepping

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Oh yeah this makes tons of sense.
Of course as you are well aware, there were two standout performances in the derby, Street Sense and Hard Spun. Street Sense had his final derby prep on the poly in the Blue Grass. Hard Spun ran his final prep on the poly at Turfway in the Lanes End. My guess is that both trainers have no problem with poly given the results on Saturday.

It is total folly on your part to keep looking for the big poly fiasco.

I'm fairly certain he's talking about horses who trained over the Churchill surface before running the Derby. Obviously, he didn't word it correctly.

Horses that had their final work over the CD surface include Street Sense, Hard Spun, Curlin, Imawildandcrazyguy, Sedgefield, Sam P., Zanjero, Dominican, Storm in May, Teuflesberg and Bwana Bull. (I may be missing a few, but those are the ones I remember.)

It seems that having a final work over the surface assisted the first 5 finishers unless it's coincidental.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I'm fairly certain he's talking about horses who trained over the Churchill surface before running the Derby. Obviously, he didn't word it correctly.

Horses that had their final work over the CD surface include Street Sense, Hard Spun, Curlin, Imawildandcrazyguy, Sedgefield, Sam P., Zanjero, Dominican, Storm in May, Teuflesberg and Bwana Bull. (I may be missing a few, but those are the ones I remember.)

It seems that having a final work over the surface assisted the first 5 finishers unless it's coincidental.

obviously though the argument can be made that this is no different from any other time when it is beneficial to work over the track where the race is held...regardless of surface.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

obviously though the argument can be made that this is no different from any other time when it is beneficial to work over the track where the race is held...regardless of surface.

Agreed... makes complete sense to do that.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

obviously though the argument can be made that this is no different from any other time when it is beneficial to work over the track where the race is held...regardless of surface.

precisely, its been done on dirt tracks as long as I can remember. Some trainers do it, some don't. Some horses need it, others don't.

[Bobby Fischer]

you obviously need to have a trainer or jockey with a southern accent to be in the derby exacta.

[whodey17]

I really hate the phrase "Derby Prep." Makes it sound like the trainer is just practicing for the Derby. Anyway, I think we will find that trainers will want their horse as sound as possible come Derby day. And if you believe that running on Poly or any other Synthetic surface if healthier for your horse then why not have your final prep on a synthetic surface rather than a dirt surface. Then give you horse a work and some gallops over the dirt surface. Bailey and Moss made a point on ESPN that made sense to me...they basically said that the synthetic surface is so forgiving that the horse just bounces over the surface therefor not giving the proper conditioning the horse needs.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by whodey17

Bailey and Moss made a point on ESPN that made sense to me...they basically said that the synthetic surface is so forgiving that the horse just bounces over the surface therefor not giving the proper conditioning the horse needs.

The Derby is a unique race where horses have to be 100% fit to win. Prepping horses over the poly where they do not have to work as hard as they do over the dirt is not going to work if you train as though you are training over dirt. Pletcher screwed up because he trains almost all of his horses in the same manner regardless of the horse or surface. Pretty much you are going to get 5 furlongs in between 59 and 102 in company 6-8 days apart. That is fine in most races especially when you have talented horses. Many good horses can win by being 95% fit but the Derby, Triple Crown races and Breeders Cup to an extent are different animals. Circular Quay had 5 works between his race on March 10 and the Derby on May 5th. Between March 14 and Derby day the winner had 6 works and 2 races. How can a horse be fit enough to win going 1 mile and 1/4 against the best of his generation with this type of preperation? We have been using the rule of thumb that polyworks are about a second and a half faster than dirt works which means a 100 five furlong poly work is equal to about 101.3 on the Dirt. My horses seem to be about that much faster working 4 and 5 furlongs over the poly than they do over dirt regardless of class level. If you are going to work exclusively over the poly to prepare for a race like the Derby, you better adjust and do a whole lot more than you would on the dirt.

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The Derby is a unique race where horses have to be 100% fit to win. Prepping horses over the poly where they do not have to work as hard as they do over the dirt is not going to work if you train as though you are training over dirt. Pletcher screwed up because he trains almost all of his horses in the same manner regardless of the horse or surface. Pretty much you are going to get 5 furlongs in between 59 and 102 in company 6-8 days apart. That is fine in most races especially when you have talented horses. Many good horses can win by being 95% fit but the Derby, Triple Crown races and Breeders Cup to an extent are different animals. Circular Quay had 5 works between his race on March 10 and the Derby on May 5th. Between March 14 and Derby day the winner had 6 works and 2 races. How can a horse be fit enough to win going 1 mile and 1/4 against the best of his generation with this type of preperation? We have been using the rule of thumb that polyworks are about a second and a half faster than dirt works which means a 100 five furlong poly work is equal to about 101.3 on the Dirt. My horses seem to be about that much faster working 4 and 5 furlongs over the poly than they do over dirt regardless of class level. If you are going to work exclusively over the poly to prepare for a race like the Derby, you better adjust and do a whole lot more than you would on the dirt.

Good post Cannon and thanks for the info.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The Derby is a unique race where horses have to be 100% fit to win. Prepping horses over the poly where they do not have to work as hard as they do over the dirt is not going to work if you train as though you are training over dirt. Pletcher screwed up because he trains almost all of his horses in the same manner regardless of the horse or surface. Pretty much you are going to get 5 furlongs in between 59 and 102 in company 6-8 days apart. That is fine in most races especially when you have talented horses. Many good horses can win by being 95% fit but the Derby, Triple Crown races and Breeders Cup to an extent are different animals. Circular Quay had 5 works between his race on March 10 and the Derby on May 5th. Between March 14 and Derby day the winner had 6 works and 2 races. How can a horse be fit enough to win going 1 mile and 1/4 against the best of his generation with this type of preperation? We have been using the rule of thumb that polyworks are about a second and a half faster than dirt works which means a 100 five furlong poly work is equal to about 101.3 on the Dirt. My horses seem to be about that much faster working 4 and 5 furlongs over the poly than they do over dirt regardless of class level. If you are going to work exclusively over the poly to prepare for a race like the Derby, you better adjust and do a whole lot more than you would on the dirt.

Good stuff Chuck...