Our great President

[Antitrust32]

man I wish the shoe was on the other foot for one week. All those ignorant "straights" would have a huge change of opinion.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

man I wish the shoe was on the other foot for one week. All those ignorant "straights" would have a huge change of opinion.

Don't go bunching all straight people in that category...

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Don't go bunching all straight people in that category...

I guess I used the "" in the wrong part. I meant all the "ignorant straights" not that all straights are ignorant! I know better!!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Don't go bunching all straight people in that category...

YEAH! lol what she said.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Wow, just read through this and all I can say is wow.

you know how i roll.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

you know how i roll.

I showed as much restraint as possible....

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I showed as much restraint as possible....

TRUST MEEEEEE, when I say that I did too. I think the discussion (outside of the outrageous gay-hating comments) hinged on whether hate-crime laws should exist or not, which was a good thing because I can see that argument as valid.

Gay-bashing victims as being at fault for being gay? Nope, still can't see that.

Once again, outside of making excuses for Ms. Leggsy Scarnato, you're the best Somer.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Well it is interesting to see different points of view, and to try and understand where they are coming from, no matter how hard it is to understand. I think by living in the Northeast I sort of forget how much different it is in other parts of the country, and how different parts of the country aren't as liberal as the Northeast and especially New York.

I know exactly what you mean, having lived in Portland, Oregon. I got used to it there and then moved back to the Midwest. Outside of Chicago, the entire region is more or less conservative. I had come to just assume that most regions were like Portland (which is basically the west coast version of liberal NE cities) and it was a rude awakening to realize that I had been living in fantasy world out there.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

man I wish the shoe was on the other foot for one week. All those ignorant "straights" would have a huge change of opinion.

Hey, don't generalize. That's the fastest way to turn it us vs. them, and there are a hell of a lot of them who don't blame gays for gay-bashing and plenty of them who see the problem with this bill getting vetoed.

[The Bid]

I also dont think they should be able to adopt children or get married.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by The Bid

I also dont think they should be able to adopt children or get married.

And how is this hurting you?

Well... I know several gay couples who have adopted children and I can assure you that they are better parents to those children than most parents in a 'normal' situation. I think that if the child is treated with love and respect, fed and clothed and taught moral values then it's OK. It's a popular misconception that a child raised in a gay environment will 'turn' gay. I believe it's more hereditary. I have about (give or take a few) ten gay friends... because I hang out with them, does that make me gay? The last time I checked, I was straight as an arrow...

[The Bid]

Since when is teaching moral values accepting homosexuality?

It hurts me because it hurts the children.

Its ridiculous to think a child has the capacity to understand homosexuality, they dont. It will cause confusion, doubt, insecurity, etc. I cant think of many situations worse than having a kid teased his entire life because he had two parents of the same sex. Can you imagine being that child growing up in school? I think instead of trying to be liberal and accepting, sometimes people have to have some common sense. Common sense will tell you thats not the environment to raise a child.

Im not reaching at all, if a straight couple was having sex in a park youd run them off, say something, or slap someone. If a gay couple was having sex in a park youd run them off, say something, or slap someone. Brian is saying thats a hate crime. I say its a well deserved beating.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Since when is teaching moral values accepting homosexuality?

It hurts me because it hurts the children.

Its ridiculous to think a child has the capacity to understand homosexuality, they dont. It will cause confusion, doubt, insecurity, etc. I cant think of many situations worse than having a kid teased his entire life because he had two parents of the same sex. Can you imagine being that child growing up in school? I think instead of trying to be liberal and accepting, sometimes people have to have some common sense. Common sense will tell you thats not the environment to raise a child.

And letting some cracked out whorehound raise the child IS?

You don't just wake up one morning and say... "Hey, I think I'll be gay." The same way you have an instinctual nature to be attracted to women (are you, by the way?), gay people have that instinctual attraction to members of their own sex.

By the way, please don't confuse me with being liberal... I am the farthest thing from. I just don't see how someone else being gay has a negative impact on MY life.

[The Bid]

It shouldnt have any impact on anyones life. Exactly my point, it should be kept behind closed doors. I dont care if someone is gay, I simply dont want to see it, and there shouldnt be any special laws for gays.

A drug addict, or abuser, or any other kind of unfit parent shouldnt be allowed to have children either. Its a gift to have a child, they deserve to be brought up in a sane environment.

Yes, I am attracted to women.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Im not reaching at all, if a straight couple was having sex in a park youd run them off, say something, or slap someone. If a gay couple was having sex in a park youd run them off, say something, or slap someone. Brian is saying thats a hate crime. I say its a well deserved beating.

So you're saying that all gays are attacked because they're having sex in public? This isn't like someone is just saying something. People are being KILLED. BIG difference. Come on...

As long as I've been alive, I've NEVER seen gay people make any more of a spectical of themselves in public than straight people. Never. Gay people are attacked because of the way they appear. That's not right IMO.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Im not reaching at all, if a straight couple was having sex in a park youd run them off, say something, or slap someone. If a gay couple was having sex in a park youd run them off, say something, or slap someone. Brian is saying thats a hate crime. I say its a well deserved beating.

Um, not so much. Well played again though.

Seeing two men holding hands on a street, and following then home and killing them after screaming anti-gay obscenities at them on the street is a hate crime.

Running people off or "saying something" or "slapping someone" is not a hate crime, even if it's a Black Jewish South African Homosexual you just slapped.

Let me go get you some examples of what a hate crime looks like, since these concepts are clearly all hypothetical in your head.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

It may not be a "hate crime" as you define it, but I can promise you that some DA somewhere would prosecute it as such. And that is a risk when it comes to the whole idea of hate crimes...instead of prosecuting the criminal act, you are also getting into, at best, inferring how an accused thinks about some groups and adding additional punishment for how one thinks. And once we start policing thoughts...I'm short on time, but I am sure you see where I am going here.

Of course I see where you're coming from. The run-up to the vote has been interesting to watch because I've been following it and what both sides have been saying about it.

I think that it speaks to your earlier post about the spirit of fairness and how other laws are already on the books. Of course there is always the potential that these laws will get interpreted very loosely by a DA, but there is the potential that they will get loosely interpreted when regarding race and religion as well, which is why I think your earlier post was very important. If there are no hate crime laws at all, that is very much one thing -- but if they continue to exist to protect certain subsets of the population, then I see no reason why they should not also protect a group who accounts for ~16% of all crimes that are already considered hate crimes (at the state level in states that already have these statutes on the books).

I just find it disingenuous that there are so many groups who are already covered by these laws that have people who say "all crimes are hate crimes," but do nothing to get their existing protections scrapped from the books. Those sorts of actions are what make proponents of this bill see those who vote against it and the president who veto it as homophobes or bigots -- because they are denying protection to a group who is very much attacked in the United States based on who they are, while they are enjoying protection from attacks based on who they are. Something doesn't add up there, and if it's not about homophobia or bigotry then what is it as long as we have other existing protected subsets on the books?

[Danzig]

i don't really agree with hate crime laws. in my mind, all crimes are hate crimes. i don't know that someone should get less time for killing someone who wasn't a minority. that doesn't make sense. why a difference? murder is murder, assault is assault.
right?