Graded Earnings: Is there an alternative?

[hi_im_god]

if you want a system that will exclude the winner of a major prep race 4 weeks before the derby from a 20 horse field i think the only answer is no system. you need a czar.

i'll nominate you as soon as you name 20 more deserving horses.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

if you want a system that will exclude the winner of a major prep race 4 weeks before the derby from a 20 horse field i think the only answer is no system. you need a czar.

i'll nominate you as soon as you name 20 more deserving horses.

I would think a Czar nominated by God would be tough to deny.

[Linny]

I read a post on another board about someone regretting Tiago keeping Chelokee out. What a crock. Both trainers did the same thing. The put all their eggs in one basket by using ONE GRADED START to attempt to earn their way in. Tiago was lucky in that his connections chose a pretty weak race. Chelokee had to face a proven G1 colt like Scat Daddy and could do no better than third. Maybe the should have gone to Cali or the Lane's End, they didn't.

I tend to think that a point system where graded earnings at 3 are worth more than those at 2 and where routes count for more than sprints. That said, it looks like this year, pretty much " the right 20" will line up.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Linny

I read a post on another board about someone regretting Tiago keeping Chelokee out. What a crock. Both trainers did the same thing. The put all their eggs in one basket by using ONE GRADED START to attempt to earn their way in. Tiago was lucky in that his connections chose a pretty weak race. Chelokee had to face a proven G1 colt like Scat Daddy and could do no better than third. Maybe the should have gone to Cali or the Lane's End, they didn't.

I tend to think that a point system where graded earnings at 3 are worth more than those at 2 and where routes count for more than sprints. That said, it looks like this year, pretty much " the right 20" will line up.

don't forget smarty jones--talk about putting your eggs in one basket. his ark derby was his ONLY graded race. so by some folks logic, he should have been excluded?! howl utterly preposterous!!

the rules are the same for everyone leading up to the derby. your horse doesn't get enough graded $--tough. he does? great. you hit the jackpot.

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by Danzig

don't forget smarty jones--talk about putting your eggs in one basket. his ark derby was his ONLY graded race. so by some folks logic, he should have been excluded?! howl utterly preposterous!!

the rules are the same for everyone leading up to the derby. your horse doesn't get enough graded $--tough. he does? great. you hit the jackpot.

Does Smarty take the Arkansas route if a point system was in play.....prob not. Looking into the past isnt viable.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by whodey17

Does Smarty take the Arkansas route if a point system was in play.....prob not. Looking into the past isnt viable.

what is past is prologue....


if if if , what is there to be gained.
there is no points system, the system is in place, and everyone knows what it is. if or when it changes, i'm sure everyone will adjust.

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Exactly. I am curious as to who might be excluded and more deserving for a Derby slot with Tiago in. It looks as though Chelokee might get in, so I can't think of anyone else that should get in over one of the possible runners.

I cant answer that right now. I dont know what the top 20 are and who is actually going in the Derby. I will glady answer this question when I have more information.

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

So then why are you so against this guy running Euro? You basically have no arguement.

I am not against him running. I was using him as an example of a horse who will get in because he got lucky in one race. My stance is that horses who have complete resumes should be given more consideration over a horse who gets lucky in one Grade I race regardless of who the horse is.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by whodey17

I am not against him running. I was using him as an example of a horse who will get in because he got lucky in one race. My stance is that horses who have complete resumes should be given more consideration over a horse who gets lucky in one Grade I race regardless of who the horse is.

What exactly is Xchanger's complete resume? 5th in an ungraded stakes and 7th in a G3 as a 3yo? Much more impressive than winning a G1.

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

What exactly is Xchanger's complete resume? 5th in an ungraded stakes and 7th in a G3 as a 3yo? Much more impressive than winning a G1.

He has raced in 5 Graded events. He has won 1, two 3rds 6th and 7th. So he has been in the battles. Not saying he is better than Tiago, saying that looking at the entire body of work his is better in my opinion.

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Thankfully you have no say on who is in or out. I suppose the lucky thing is valid, only because he hasn't had the opportunity to prove you wrong. He might develop into a very good 3 year old. Maybe not, but like I said his potential and upside is so much more than that of Sam P, X Changer and others on your list, especially since he has beaten some on your list, while making just his 4th start.

He may turn out to be very good and I hope he does. I am just saying that 1 race should not get you a guaranteed spot in the Derby. Imagine if that maiden who ran in the Arkansas Derby won, then he would be in. How is that logical.

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

if you want a system that will exclude the winner of a major prep race 4 weeks before the derby from a 20 horse field i think the only answer is no system. you need a czar.

i'll nominate you as soon as you name 20 more deserving horses.

1) Street Sense
2) Great Hunter
3) Hard Spun
4) No Biz
5) Scat Daddy
6) Circular Quay
7) Curlin
8) Dominican
9) Stormello
10) Zanjero
11) Liquidity
12) Teuffelsburg
13) Any Given Saturday
14) Cowtown Cat
15) King Of The Roxy
16) Sam P
17) Officer Rocket
18) XChanger
19) Storm In May
20) Sightseeing

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by whodey17

1) Street Sense
2) Great Hunter
3) Hard Spun
4) No Biz
5) Scat Daddy
6) Circular Quay
7) Curlin
8) Dominican
9) Stormello
10) Zanjero
11) Liquidity
12) Teuffelsburg
13) Any Given Saturday
14) Cowtown Cat
15) King Of The Roxy
16) Sam P
17) Officer Rocket
18) XChanger
19) Storm In May
20) Sightseeing

You're not serious, right?

[Danzig]

sooo..

who was the last horse who was excluded due to earnings who turned out to be something later in the year, against the 'stars' of his crop?? i'm not talking older, i mean a three year old, who missed the derby, but came out and won the midsummer classics, or in the fall, and showed he was much the best?

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Danzig

sooo..

who was the last horse who was excluded due to earnings who turned out to be something later in the year, against the 'stars' of his crop?? i'm not talking older, i mean a three year old, who missed the derby, but came out and won the midsummer classics, or in the fall, and showed he was much the best?

Sunriver? LMAO

My memory sucks.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Danzig

sooo..

who was the last horse who was excluded due to earnings who turned out to be something later in the year, against the 'stars' of his crop?? i'm not talking older, i mean a three year old, who missed the derby, but came out and won the midsummer classics, or in the fall, and showed he was much the best?

Rock Hard Ten, didn't win any midsummer classics as he stayed in California, but he did OK out there.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Rock Hard Ten

Yeah, your answer is definitely better than mine. LOL

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Rock Hard Ten, didn't win any midsummer classics as he stayed in California, but he did OK out there.

rock hard ten was much the best of his crop????

and he ran in the belmont, didn't he?

i'm talking about one of these on the cusp of the derby horses, who CAN'T run, but comes out and kicks butt over the derby runners later, or over the winner--er, this would have to be ancient history, derby winners don't tend to run past june anymore!

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Danzig

rock hard ten was much the best of his crop????

and he ran in the belmont, didn't he?

i'm talking about one of these on the cusp of the derby horses, who CAN'T run, but comes out and kicks butt over the derby runners later, or over the winner--er, this would have to be ancient history, derby winners don't tend to run past june anymore!

Sorry, I didn't think your question asked for who ended up being the best of the crop, but what horse got left out of the Derby and ended up being one of the nicer horses in the crop. (defeating the 'stars')

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Yeah he won the Swaps I think, was drowned in the Haskell and later won the Malibu. He was okay, but I doubt he was going to be in Smarty's area code Derby day, since he was a huge question mark outside of Cali.

I wasn't a real big fan, but those that were theorized that as a older more mature Rock Hard Ten he would have won outside of CA, particularly the Breeder's Cup Classic.

You can say that we know RHT became a better horse with maturity...you can't guarantee that with Smarty. Through the Triple Crown though, no doubt - Smarty ruled.