CRIST: Sets the NY facts straight

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

There is absolutely no way to promote the jockeys as long as there is no way for the common fan to tell which jockey is which each race without looking at their form. As long as the jockeys are wearing the owners silks they are not promotable. Unless they come up with a way to differentiate the jockeys by a quick glance while keeping the owners happy there is little to no chance of promoting the jockeys. Imagine if Larry Bird or Magic Johnson wore a helmet and goggles and came out in a different color jersey with a different number every game. Even they would have been difficult to promote in that situation.

Jockeys cant have their own silks. They are EMPLOYEES remember?

[Cannon Shell]

Plus as great as some riders are their skills are not readily apparent like an athlete in another sport. What makes the top jockeys that, is a great sense of timing, patience, and hands. All of which are hard to quantify or identify.

The truth is that promoting jockeys or trainers or any other persons wont work, because even novices understand that the horses talent is what is important and readily apparent.

[Cannon Shell]

I had a conversation with a few other trainers this morning about a variety of topics including slots and the pros and cons. We are very worried as a group about what is going to happen once the tracks start raking in huge profits from the slots despite the raise of purses. I personally feel that the tracks will even be more independent and instead of coming together to solve some of the industrywide problems they will just try to throw money at them. Tracks in general have treated horsemen as a necessary evil when we were their only product so you can understand how we feel we will be viewed as we are marginalized. However if casinos are allowed in our markets without us being involved, it would surely lead to the rapid demise of the tracks. Being a gambling venture, we need to compete on the same level as the casinos. I personally have no problem with slots players not playing the races as long as we are seeing a portion of their revenue. Instead of going after slots players we should go after people who have not yet become gamblers and stress the positives of betting on our sport. Make them horseplayers before they become slot players or poker players. I would say the typical slot player is not smart or lucrative enough to become a sucessful horse player any way.

I think that horseracing in general has done a terrible job with the TV networks. We should give all our big races to ESPN when the contracts expire. Let them promote the sport year round and stop whining about overruns from little league baseball and such. Remember before last year ESPN was covering the BC preps in a half assed manner because another network covered it. If we were to give them the Triple Crown and BC I am sure they would do a much better job of televising the preps. Make ESPN and their family of networks the horse racing channel. ESPN gives you great demographics and really can help "make" a sport. Look at Poker. The current TC situation is a sad joke. The 1st 2 races on one network and the Belmont on another. I know one thing, if ESPN had the Derby we would have gotten a whole lot more coverage of races like the FL Derby and AR Derby. Maybe I'm wrong but as the networks fade ESPN will only get bigger.

I also think ESPN can help us in another area where racing is missing out badly. That is promoting the sport to the increasing hispanic population. There are so many prominent hispanics that are key players in our sport why are we not actively promoting to these people? If you watch ESPN sportscenter in the morning you see them promoting ESPN desportes every day. Racing could be a natural fit for this portion of the network which is looking hard for content.

But of course there are great ideas like the jockey cam and free t-shirts.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Being a gambling venture, we need to compete on the same level as the casinos. I personally have no problem with slots players not playing the races as long as we are seeing a portion of their revenue. Instead of going after slots players we should go after people who have not yet become gamblers and stress the positives of betting on our sport. Make them horseplayers before they become slot players or poker players. I would say the typical slot player is not smart or lucrative enough to become a sucessful horse player any way.

Horseman organizations have long opposed takeout reductions...which is absolutely essential.....and the draconian takeout is really the main reason why betting on horses is considered a suckers game by so many....and so tremendously few professional horseplayers exist.

I think if horseman really want to see what you say happen...they ought not be there to oppose takeout reductions...in fact, they should lobby for them.

From an economical standpoint---I think takeout reductions will help everyone.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Horseman organizations have long opposed takeout reductions...which is absolutely essential.....and the draconian takeout is really the main reason why betting on horses is considered a suckers game by so many....and so tremendously few professional horseplayers exist.

I think if horseman really want to see what you say happen...they ought not be there to oppose takeout reductions...in fact, they should lobby for them.

From an economical standpoint---I think takeout reductions will help everyone.

I agree with you on these points and you have to understand that much of the time the horsemans organizations are run not by the will of the horsemen but by the decree of those elected. I'm sure that a large majority of NY horsemen are hoping NYRA wins the NY deal despite the backing of Empire by their leaders. Plus a lot of horsemen are really dumb.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Plus a lot of horsemen are really dumb.

I know this first hand.

Both of my parents trained race horses at one time.....

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

If you want to go after the people who have yet to become gamblers and to stress the positives of betting on the sport, then keep them away from people like Jeff Mullins and Barry Irwin.

Everyone remembers what Mullins told T.J. Simers from the LA Times about what he thinks on the subject, and Irwin's bloodhorse.com Q&A recently revealed a similar sentiment. He was asked what he learned as an owner that he didn't know as a handicapper, and he said that he "learned enough to give up serious gambling."

How do you bring in new people with statements like these?

You are right. Thats what happens when you put an ignorant person near a ignorant reporter and the other guy is just sooooooo smart and we are all idiots.

[10 pnt move up]

I missed that, how damning of a statement is that...............

[ddthetide]

ny has as big a mess as maryland. baltimore will lose the preakness before md law makers do anything about it.
all the ny people have to look at are the slots at charles town. it's all about the slots and soon to be table games.

[estreetposse]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Plus as great as some riders are their skills are not readily apparent like an athlete in another sport. What makes the top jockeys that, is a great sense of timing, patience, and hands. All of which are hard to quantify or identify.

The truth is that promoting jockeys or trainers or any other persons wont work, because even novices understand that the horses talent is what is important and readily apparent.

I have to say sitting out back in Saratoga you get to see & hear where the $$ goes in a race. It's was and always is, "What # is Bailey on?"...Which is the Pletcher horse?"...Johnny V. & Pletcher; can't touch'em."...Another Paraneck & Pedersen...just kidding!!!
Yes, they have many of the best horses and we love to beat them, but Joe Public knows and recognizes names and faces and will continue bet them more and more. Which name do you know? Pletcher or Parisella? Bailey or Arroyo?
Everything is marketable, finding out how to market it is the difficult part.
Lots love the horse, but it can't run by itself...it needs a team behind it and that team is manmade. Maybe marketed together as a team would be a place to start.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by estreetposse

I have to say sitting out back in Saratoga you get to see & hear where the $$ goes in a race. It's was and always is, "What # is Bailey on?"...Which is the Pletcher horse?"...Johnny V. & Pletcher; can't touch'em."...Another Paraneck & Pedersen...just kidding!!!
Yes, they have many of the best horses and we love to beat them, but Joe Public knows and recognizes names and faces and will continue bet them more and more. Which name do you know? Pletcher or Parisella? Bailey or Arroyo?
Everything is marketable, finding out how to market it is the difficult part.
Lots love the horse, but it can't run by itself...it needs a team behind it and that team is manmade. Maybe marketed together as a team would be a place to start.

Those people you hear are already there. The public will not come to watch Todd Pletcher train or John Velasquez ride. They come to bet horses and if they dont bet then they really are not going to be worth very much to the game in the long run anyway. I have stressed this in many posts before. Market the sport as a betting vechicle not as a sport. Trainers and owners and jockeys are not marketable in any meaningful manner. Horses careers are fleeting. The fact that you can walk into a track and figure out how to make 6 or 7 figure scores are what will bring people and keep them coming back.

[estreetposse]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Those people you hear are already there. The public will not come to watch Todd Pletcher train or John Velasquez ride. They come to bet horses and if they dont bet then they really are not going to be worth very much to the game in the long run anyway. I have stressed this in many posts before. Market the sport as a betting vechicle not as a sport. Trainers and owners and jockeys are not marketable in any meaningful manner. Horses careers are fleeting. The fact that you can walk into a track and figure out how to make 6 or 7 figure scores are what will bring people and keep them coming back.

I agree on this but I still think you need to have the characters to throw it in the faces of people. If you knew nothing of Hooters, would you rather go to see what it's about with an owl on the billboard or a hot blonde with her %^%&%$ popping out...get what I'm saying? The characters would include the horses, jocks, trainers.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Those people you hear are already there. The public will not come to watch Todd Pletcher train or John Velasquez ride. They come to bet horses and if they dont bet then they really are not going to be worth very much to the game in the long run anyway. I have stressed this in many posts before. Market the sport as a betting vechicle not as a sport. Trainers and owners and jockeys are not marketable in any meaningful manner. Horses careers are fleeting. The fact that you can walk into a track and figure out how to make 6 or 7 figure scores are what will bring people and keep them coming back.

Yes, but the fact that the Pick Six is a $2 minimum prevents a lot of people like myself from being able to take a reasonable shot at that 6 or 7 figure score. As long as that is the case it will make it a lot more difficult to promote the game to new gamblers on the basis of the big score. You really need to get comfortable making other bets and already be hooked on the game before you can venture into the Pick Six pool.

[TheSpyder]

The bottom line is getting more people interested in horse racing, more people coming to the races, and more people betting on the races.

This is all about marketing as well as making the product better, period.

If you can't get the people to the races, we need to bring the races to the people. Andy had a great idea about making the pick six available where you buy lottery tickets. Great idea. Why not add the suspence of watching an afternoon of races instead of those stupid ping pong balls.

Another idea as I mentioned earlier is the old grocery store show that gave you a ticket to watch races for prizes in a 30 minute weekly show.

With so many choices for entertainment and sensory overload at every turn, you have to go to the public an somehow make more of their daily life. I wish someone in racing would support a one page horse racing news update in US Today or something like that.

I know living in England horse racing's prominance in daily life is substantial.

I don't think it's an internal solution, it's putting it in the face of Joe public and selling him on the upside what ever that should, could be.

[2MinsToPost]

GREAT READ, this thread. Just this humble novices thoughts.....

- The locals that I know well here, well they have a bad opinion of New York Racing. Why? Well, if ya listen to them they tell you that "Them New Yorker's are all crooks". Now, how can NYRA try to get these stubborn heads to see the light?

- If you manage a "Racino" properly, I don't see why it won't work. With skilled people in their proper positions of power and a CLEAR seperation of the casino atmosphere and the track atmosphere. I feel that is CRITICAL, cause I don't go the track to hear all those machines.

- Advertising the jockeys? Most can't put together a complete sentence (no offense) and they all look the same (again, no offense). The horses, on the other hand.

- Truth be told, at least in Ohio, gambling is eveil in many folks eyes but yet their is a bingo parlor on every street corner. Horse racing is a very pure form of entertainment where one can take a date. He can take his lady friend to the track, buy her a half decent meal and some drinks, and maybe even end the night with more money then he started with.

- My last thought. Folks in postions of power in the industry are doing very little to advertise their product to potential new customers. Sure, slots will draw all kinds, but............................................... ..............if the management does not draw the clear line between THE HORSE RACING EXPERIENCE and the CASINO EXPERIENCE then it is a failure in the making

[Linny]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Those people you hear are already there. The public will not come to watch Todd Pletcher train or John Velasquez ride. They come to bet horses and if they dont bet then they really are not going to be worth very much to the game in the long run anyway. I have stressed this in many posts before. Market the sport as a betting vechicle not as a sport. Trainers and owners and jockeys are not marketable in any meaningful manner. Horses careers are fleeting. The fact that you can walk into a track and figure out how to make 6 or 7 figure scores are what will bring people and keep them coming back.

The fact is that if they treated racing like a lottery, promote the P6 for the $2 bettor. Like the "dollar and a dream" theme in lottery. Instead of "mystery bet" vouchers with admission, why noy a $2 quick pick on the P4 or P6? Get them watching and cheering for 4 or 6 consecutive races. It's a betting game and honestly the odds are better than lotto or such. Plus, all the novice money in the pools is good for experienced bettors.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Linny

The fact is that if they treated racing like a lottery, promote the P6 for the $2 bettor. Like the "dollar and a dream" theme in lottery. Instead of "mystery bet" vouchers with admission, why noy a $2 quick pick on the P4 or P6? Get them watching and cheering for 4 or 6 consecutive races. It's a betting game and honestly the odds are better than lotto or such. Plus, all the novice money in the pools is good for experienced bettors.

Definitely. Can they market it by pointing out what the takeout is in a Pick Six pool as opposed to the lottery? I could see that causing them to butt heads with the lottery but really if they could point out that a higher percentage of the Pick Six pool goes back to the bettors than the lottery does it would encourage players to play quick Pick 6s instead. I suppose the only problem would be for the normal horseplayers if in what would normally be an obvious carryover situation someone scooped the pot on a quick pick.

[Downthestretch55]

Great article. Thanks for putting it up.

Just my two pennies...I don't think slots are the answer.

And HHH, Grand Union is still around...I went grocery shopping there yesterday.

[estreetposse]

I guess we should get back to the fact we don't need a F@$#%& Circus at the racetrack whether it's Saratoga or Aqueduct and that's what Wynn is throwing out there. Listening to most people out there, NYRA seems to be the way to go. Now as I posted elsewhere, isn't there somone out there with connections to the committee or other friends in high places that can show them these forums, this one or any other ones for that matter, that show what a reasonable amount of people think about the situation of racing in NY

[Holland Hacker]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Jockeys cant have their own silks. They are EMPLOYEES remember?

Are they employees or independent contractors?