Street Sense Number

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ELA

I hear you Chuck, but doesn't all that play into people wanting a horse to "peak" so to speak? Maybe it's two sides of the same coin, or maybe it's BS, LOL.


Eric

You cant get a horse to "peak" on a particular day. It's crap. Who in recent years "peaked" before the Derby and blew it? Trainers can not control how their horse matures and gets better or doesn't. As I said in another thread, they undertrain and race them and that is a leading cause of so many young, developing horses getting hurt. And if I had a really talented horse and tried to do it a different way, I'm sure that I would hear all the naysayers tell me how I was a Derby rookie and dont know what I'm doing. The pressure that Pletcher puts on the rest of the trainers is immense because so many of the dopes that own horses cant seem to understand that his methods work because of the horses not because of the methods. Of course he has won as many Derbies as the rest of us on this board.

[declansharbor]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You cant get a horse to "peak" on a particular day. It's crap. Who in recent years "peaked" before the Derby and blew it? Trainers can not control how their horse matures and gets better or doesn't. As I said in another thread, they undertrain and race them and that is a leading cause of so many young, developing horses getting hurt. And if I had a really talented horse and tried to do it a different way, I'm sure that I would hear all the naysayers tell me how I was a Derby rookie and dont know what I'm doing. The pressure that Pletcher puts on the rest of the trainers is immense because so many of the dopes that own horses cant seem to understand that his methods work because of the horses not because of the methods. Of course he has won as many Derbies as the rest of us on this board.

Would you say Bellamy Road ran too good of a race in the Wood to come back and duplicate that performance in the Derby? A horse that blew his engine too early to me was Brother derek..Just my opinion of course

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by declansharbor

Would you say Bellamy Road ran too good of a race in the Wood to come back and duplicate that performance in the Derby? A horse that blew his engine too early to me was Brother derek..Just my opinion of course

Maybe he did but how could you prevent that from happening?
Brother Derek had an easy road to the Derby. A bunch of paceless races in his own back yard against far from talented competition. Plus he got a pretty brutal trip in the Derby.

[The Bid]

4 horse fields dont produce a Derby winner

[declansharbor]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Maybe he did but how could you prevent that from happening?
Brother Derek had an easy road to the Derby. A bunch of paceless races in his own back yard against far from talented competition. Plus he got a pretty brutal trip in the Derby.

You cant. They are going to run the way they know how to. Do you believe in the hooplah about stewie elliot taking it too hard on Smarty in the Preakness?? This in turn, not leaving Smarty with not much in the tank for the Belmont.. I dont give that any credence but a couple of buddies of mine do..I respect your opinion on horses and the industry as a whole, a great deal..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by declansharbor

You cant. They are going to run the way they know how to. Do you believe in the hooplah about stewie elliot taking it too hard on Smarty in the Preakness?? This in turn, not leaving Smarty with not much in the tank for the Belmont.. I dont give that any credence but a couple of buddies of mine do..I respect your opinion on horses and the industry as a whole, a great deal..

I thought that both he and Santos on Funny Cide may have gotten a little carried away in the stretch of the Preakness but it is impossible to determine if it had any effect in the Belmont. I think that in many cases what the rider is doing has little effect on the speed of horses once they are going full speed. But in these cases in deep stretch of taxing races on short rest, I would rather see the jockey take it easy rather than drive them to the wire. Things like this and the arguments that occur because of them are what makes racing interesting. Of course the fact that they may give you a lot of money after the race makes it pretty good also.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by declansharbor

Would you say Bellamy Road ran too good of a race in the Wood to come back and duplicate that performance in the Derby? A horse that blew his engine too early to me was Brother derek..Just my opinion of course

Bellamy Road was injured in that race I believe (made his next start in the travers and ran an excellent 2nd). He also finished 7th in the derby - which was very good considering he was injured and was pushing a fast pace, i believe closing argument was close to that pace also and was the only horse that outlasted bellamy road to the wire (from the pace).

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Bellamy Road was injured in that race I believe (made his next start in the travers and ran an excellent 2nd). He also finished 7th in the derby - which was very good considering he was injured and was pushing a fast pace, i believe closing argument was close to that pace also and was the only horse that outlasted bellamy road to the wire (from the pace).

I still think that Bellamy Road was one of the most (if not THE most) talented horses of that crop. It's a shame he couldn't stay sound.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Would it be fair to say that Hansel "bounced" in the Derby after running two huge races within five weeks of the Derby (track record in the Jim Beam and winning the Lexington Stakes)?

I honestly dont remember but I did bet him in the Preakness but can't remember why.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Because he bounced in the Derby???????????

Maybe?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I like your point about starting a horse's three-year-old season in a sprint race. I follow Australian racing, and top tier horses usually start a "preparation" (series of races) at 6F or 7F. No reason it could not be done here.

It was done here for about a hundred years

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It was done here for about a hundred years

For a quality route horse where there are no "can he get the distance" questions, I love to see a sprint under his belt before stretching out. I have this theory that it helps to get the stride rate up, and is great to build fitness.

I'm not a trainer but it just seems logical.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

For a quality route horse where there are no "can he get the distance" questions, I love to see a sprint under his belt before stretching out. I have this theory that it helps to get the stride rate up, and is great to build fitness.

I'm not a trainer but it just seems logical.

I'm not a trainer either and have no clue, but couldn't that be accomplished in a bullet work?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I'm not a trainer either and have no clue, but couldn't that be accomplished in a bullet work?

To an extent , yes. But since workouts are generally never done at racing speed you don't get the full effect. At least that's the way it seems to me.
Maybe Cannon Shell can comment on that.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

To an extent , yes. But since workouts are generally never done at racing speed you don't get the full effect. At least that's the way it seems to me.
Maybe Cannon Shell can comment on that.

Why work for free when you can run and get paid?

A sprint race would move a horse along a lot further than a fast work.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Why work for free when you can run and get paid?

A sprint race would move a horse along a lot further than a fast work.

Would you have recommended starting Street Sense in a sprint or would you have followed the path he's currently on?

I dont know if anyone can explain what happened to Hansel, he doesnt seem to be a horse who showed a bounce pattern, He won the Preakness and Belmont after the horrible 10th in the derby. In 14 career starts he only was off the board twice, I am not sure what the other one was, I doubt if it was as bad as the derby.

I thought I heard somewhere that he may have spooked or something with the crowd at the derby, but I guess no one has really explained it. His record just doesnt seem to fit him as a candidate for a bounce.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

The practice of not running them in sprints to begin their Derby preparations is relatively new, isn't it (10 years)?

It used to be customary for Florida three-year-olds to run in the Hutcheson Stakes to begin the season.

I thought that the Hutch would have been a great spot for Street Sense

Gulfstream did not always have the same dates as they used to switch with Hialeah. The Bahamas at Hialeah was also a race that was used as a starting point for many top three year olds.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Gulfstream did not always have the same dates as they used to switch with Hialeah.

And before that, Hialeah had the choice early winter dates every year, with Gulfstream getting the later dates.

--Dunbar

This might come out FUBAR...

Breeders� Cup Juvenile winners in 3-year-old debut
Year Juvenile winner date of return finish Race Derby finish
+2007 Street Sense 3/17 ? Tampa Bay Derby ?
+2006 Stevie Wonderboy 1/14 2nd San Rafael --
2005 Wilko 3/19 4th San Rafael 6th
+2004 Action This Day 2/8 4th Sham 6th
+2003 Vindication retired
+2002 Johannesburg 4/7 2nd Irish Group 3 8th
+2001 Macho Uno 7/25 2nd allowance --
+2000 Anees 3/19 3rd San Felipe 13th
+1999 Answer Lively 1/30 6th Lecomte 10th
+1998 Favorite Trick 3/14 1st Swale 8th
+1997 Boston Harbor 2/2 4th Santa Catalina --
1996 Unbridled�s Song 2/4 2nd Hutcheson 5th
+1995 Timber Country 3/4 3rd San Rafael 3rd
1994 Brocco 3/20 2nd San Felipe 4th
+1993 Gilded Time 11/6 3rd BC Sprint --
+1992 Arazi 4/7 1st French Group 3 8th
+1991 Fly So Free 3/14 1st Swale 5th
+1990 Rhythm 2/10 7th Hutcheson --
1989 Is It True 4/14 5th allowance --
1988 Success Express 1/27 3rd San Vicente--
+1987 Capote 4/4 4th Gotham eased
+1986 Tasso 3/15 1st $55,000 stakes ---
+1985 Chief�s Crown 3/2 1st Swale 3rd