Ron Santo

Yes, Ron Santo was above-average performer in his era. But, his stats don't scream Cooperstown. Less than 2300 hits in 15 seasons at hot corner. Plus, his fielding while workmanlike was not as spectacular as Brooksie.

Doug Rader won 5 consecutive Gold Gloves at 3rd base. I don't think die-hard Astro fan (me) would suggest he belongs in HOF either.

Yes, I agree Ron Santo is great spokesperson for Cubs and baseball. But, he is seeking election as PLAYER here not as Cub ambassador-at-large.

[Cannon Shell]

You guys aren't seriously saying that Ryne Sandberg was a better baseball player than Joe Morgan are you?

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You guys aren't seriously saying that Ryne Sandberg was a better baseball player than Joe Morgan are you?

Yes I am, and even with my bias many agree with me. Joe Morgan was a product of the environment, I could hit 15 HR's in the MLB with Bench, Rose, Perez, Concepcion hanging around me.

Sandburg had Mark Grace and a little Dawson

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scav

Yes I am, and even with my bias many agree with me. Joe Morgan was a product of the environment, I could hit 15 HR's in the MLB with Bench, Rose, Perez, Concepcion hanging around me.

Sandburg had Mark Grace and a little Dawson

Morgan is clearly the best modern day 2nd baseman. He was a great leadoff hitter, was the best baserunner in an era where stealing was important, and was great defensive player. All of which have nothing to do with who plays for your team.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Morgan is clearly the best modern day 2nd baseman. He was a great leadoff hitter, was the best baserunner in an era where stealing was important, and was great defensive player. All of which have nothing to do with who plays for your team.

While it is hard to argue because both players meant different things to their teams, Sandburg was clearly a better all around player. HE WON games on his own when the Cubs sucked. He WON GAMES HIMSELF in a team sport. He was a SMALL notch below defensively, and probably better then Morgan towards the end of his career, but offensively, you will not convince me otherwise that Morgen was better, not a chance

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scav

While it is hard to argue because both players meant different things to their teams, Sandburg was clearly a better all around player. HE WON games on his own when the Cubs sucked. He WON GAMES HIMSELF in a team sport. He was a SMALL notch below defensively, and probably better then Morgan towards the end of his career, but offensively, you will not convince me otherwise that Morgen was better, not a chance

Morgan is a better player.
Comparing the players against the leagues that they played in:

Batting average
Morgan .271 vs league .260
Sandberg .285 vs league .269
slight advantage to RS

OBP
Morgan .392. vs league .326
Sandberg . 344 vs league .333
huge advantage Morgan

OPS
Morgan .819 vs league .710
Sandberg .796 vs league .741
huge advantage Morgan

Slg %
Morgan .427 vs League .384
Sandberg .452 vs league .404
even

Runs Created per 27 outs
Morgan 6.59
Sandberg 5.58
advantage Morgan

Runs created per 650 Ab
Morgan 100.4
Sandberg 91.8
advantage Morgan

Secondary average
Morgan .431
Sandberg .296
huge advantage Morgan

Sb
Morgan 689 from 801 attempts 86%
Sandberg 344 from 451 attempts 76%
big advantage Morgan

And these stats are a bit skewed in favor of Sandberg because he played his whole career in a very favorable hitters park while Morgan had 6 years of the Astrodome. Plus Morgan did not know when to go and really dragged his numbers down the last 2 years of his career. Sandberg is a great player and a top 6 all time second basemen. But Morgan is only behind the great Rogers Hornsby as a second baseman and is the best of the modern age.

OK I am on this now. Ryne Sanberg and Morgan. Say they were both good hitters, even. (Even though Sanberg hit with much more power). There is no way, no flippin way, that Morgan was as much of an advantage in the field as Sandberg. I watched both these guys play extensively. Sandberg covered huge amounts of ground as gracefully as you will ever see.

HE HAS GOT TO BE ONE OF THE BEST FIELDING 2ND BASEMEN OF ALLTIME...

As for Santo. The list I presented, how in the world can someone say the guys on that list could not field as well when a couple never even had a motion picture camera on them.

And comparing Brooks Robinson to Santo for batting??? HOw in God's name did Ozzie Smith make the hall of fame? Thats the same reason Brooks is where he is. No comparison in the field. Which is thoroughly overlooked, and dont stat it with fewest errors.

ITS HOW MANY HITS YOU TAKE AWAY. Sandberg and Robinson took enormous numbers of hits away, as of course did Ozzie.

This is fun. The old guys.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Morgan is a better player.
Comparing the players against the leagues that they played in:

Batting average
Morgan .271 vs league .260
Sandberg .285 vs league .269
slight advantage to RS

OBP
Morgan .392. vs league .326
Sandberg . 344 vs league .333
huge advantage Morgan

OPS
Morgan .819 vs league .710
Sandberg .796 vs league .741
huge advantage Morgan

Slg %
Morgan .427 vs League .384
Sandberg .452 vs league .404
even

Runs Created per 27 outs
Morgan 6.59
Sandberg 5.58
advantage Morgan

Runs created per 650 Ab
Morgan 100.4
Sandberg 91.8
advantage Morgan

Secondary average
Morgan .431
Sandberg .296
huge advantage Morgan

Sb
Morgan 689 from 801 attempts 86%
Sandberg 344 from 451 attempts 76%
big advantage Morgan

And these stats are a bit skewed in favor of Sandberg because he played his whole career in a very favorable hitters park while Morgan had 6 years of the Astrodome. Plus Morgan did not know when to go and really dragged his numbers down the last 2 years of his career. Sandberg is a great player and a top 6 all time second basemen. But Morgan is only behind the great Rogers Hornsby as a second baseman and is the best of the modern age.

You cherry picked numbers there CRAZY style, where is HR's/RBI's/2b's/Errors/hits/K's/Walks. You bust out 2nd rate stats except for SB's (which I will not and can't argue with because Sandberg wasn't a good baserunner). The interesting thing about this is I have never seen runs created per AB's. I am now a HUGE fan of that stat. Where did you get that from?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Morgan is clearly the best modern day 2nd baseman. He was a great leadoff hitter, was the best baserunner in an era where stealing was important, and was great defensive player. All of which have nothing to do with who plays for your team.

Absolutely agree. Morgan didn't have the range in the field that Sandberg had but he was very good defensively. Sandberg's offensive statistics were amassed in Wrigley Field, clearly an advantage over the parks Morgan played in. In spite of this, Morgan was clearly a better offensive player than Sandberg. He also performed his best when the bright lights were on him. He shined in the clutch, and especially, in the post season.