English Channel- Track Record

[blackthroatedwind]

Anyone who actually believes the times Gulfstream posts for their turf races must also believe in elves and fairies ( which leaves DrugS open ).

I guess second place finisher, the mighty Mending Fences, must be the early US favorite for the BC Mile.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Anyone who actually believes the times Gulfstream posts for their turf races must also believe in elves and fairies ( which leaves DrugS open ).

Keeping taking swipes at my religion all you want....

You intolerant bastard

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

hes not doing that well from what i see.. struggled to win today vs ..in reality 50 claimers......

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I'm not so sure he struggled....that will probably come when he faces real horses in Dubai.

I'd say he ran a fairly ideal comeback race.

Now he's feed for the wolves

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Anyone who actually believes the times Gulfstream posts for their turf races must also believe in elves and fairies

And you are right--I don't really believe the 26 and change and 51 and change fractions posted in last years GP BC Turf....

It was probably more like 27 and change and 53 flat. Einstein won wire-to-wire, but if you remember the race---Cornelio Velasquez got in a world class wrestling match with Gun Salute to keep him off the lead.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

hes not doing that well from what i see.. struggled to win today vs ..in reality 50 claimers......

you ain't baiting me with that sh*t. You have seen enough races in your life to know what you saw today.

I was glad to see he was no where near as rank early on as he has been in the past. Settled much better today.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Anyone who actually believes the times Gulfstream posts for their turf races must also believe in elves and fairies ( which leaves DrugS open ).

I guess second place finisher, the mighty Mending Fences, must be the early US favorite for the BC Mile.

Am I agreeing with cynical Andy? What is this world coming to?...No offense Kev and the rest, but the record means nothing here. Not only do you need to handtime GP races, but since they redesigned the track and kept the turf rock hard, the times have been ridiculous. Horses running 8.5 on the turf in 1:39 in change were getting like 100 Beyers and nothing more....It was a useful comeback, but this is not a situation where people should be jumping up and down over the record. And I'm not taking a shot at the horse here who shows up everytime and is a great animal.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Am I agreeing with cynical Andy? What is this world coming to?...No offense Kev and the rest, but the record means nothing here. Not only do you need to handtime GP races, but since they redesigned the track and kept the turf rock hard, the times have been ridiculous. Horses running 8.5 on the turf in 1:39 in change were getting like 100 Beyers and nothing more....It was a useful comeback, but this is not a situation where people should be jumping up and down over the record. And I'm not taking a shot at the horse here who shows up everytime and is a great animal.

None taking bro...the track record don't mean much really.

I was just telling hooves he wasn't baiting me with that "hes not doing well from what I see" comment.

Johnny never touched him...shook him a few times...but never touched him. It was a perfect comeback race that I doubt took anything at all out of him.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Am I agreeing with cynical Andy? What is this world coming to?...No offense Kev and the rest, but the record means nothing here. Not only do you need to handtime GP races, but since they redesigned the track and kept the turf rock hard, the times have been ridiculous. Horses running 8.5 on the turf in 1:39 in change were getting like 100 Beyers and nothing more....It was a useful comeback, but this is not a situation where people should be jumping up and down over the record. And I'm not taking a shot at the horse here who shows up everytime and is a great animal.

You didn't really just refer to English Channel as " great "....right?

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You didn't really just refer to English Channel as " great "....right?

Depends on what you think of as great. He isn't an "all-time great" by any means. He is right now one of a handful of the best American turf horses we have. He is as consistent as they come and has won what 3 Grade 1s at this point? 4? I don't know....Maybe the great was an homage to Kev. Maybe not.

[horseofcourse]

He's a non-gelded multiple grade 1 winner still running at 5. That's great, even if he isn't in the classic sense.

[blackthroatedwind]

Being better than weak competition is nowhere close to greatness. English Channel is an exceptionally good horse, who has kept his form for a long time now, and he's a commendable racehorse. However, he has never overcome a scintilla of adversity or beaten a particularly good horse. No, it's not his fault the competition has been weak, but he has failed to deliver even a marginally good effort in his three biggest races....the Arlington Million and two BC Turfs.

Take a look at some of the races Theatrical and Manila ran back in the late 80s. I'm not sure they were great....but they would have devoured English Channel. Theatrical won six or seven Grade 1s in 1987, from February through November, and Manila easily bested him in that year's Arlington Million ( unfortunately his last start ). Now those were really exceptional horses.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Being better than weak competition is nowhere close to greatness. English Channel is an exceptionally good horse, who has kept his form for a long time now, and he's a commendable racehorse. However, he has never overcome a scintilla of adversity or beaten a particularly good horse. No, it's not his fault the competition has been weak, but he has failed to deliver even a marginally good effort in his three biggest races....the Arlington Million and two BC Turfs.

Take a look at some of the races Theatrical and Manila ran back in the late 80s. I'm not sure they were great....but they would have devoured English Channel. Theatrical won six or seven Grade 1s in 1987, from February through November, and Manila easily bested him in that year's Arlington Million ( unfortunately his last start ). Now those were really exceptional horses.

Semantics. My fault.

[blackthroatedwind]

It's really just a pet peeve of mine...the way " great " is thrown around. And, having seen some truly remarkable horses over the years it bothers me the casualness with which people throw around the term. I feel insulted for the few great ones there were that they are thrown into the same category as so many lessers we have seen recently. These days we don't even get a chance to find out if a horse is great, as they get retired so quickly, and for that reason I guess we should be happy English Channel is still around.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Being better than weak competition is nowhere close to greatness. English Channel is an exceptionally good horse, who has kept his form for a long time now, and he's a commendable racehorse. However, he has never overcome a scintilla of adversity or beaten a particularly good horse. No, it's not his fault the competition has been weak, but he has failed to deliver even a marginally good effort in his three biggest races....the Arlington Million and two BC Turfs.

Take a look at some of the races Theatrical and Manila ran back in the late 80s. I'm not sure they were great....but they would have devoured English Channel. Theatrical won six or seven Grade 1s in 1987, from February through November, and Manila easily bested him in that year's Arlington Million ( unfortunately his last start ). Now those were really exceptional horses.

English Channel is nothing special...my point was just the fact that he still walks to the track is special...the deed of still running and being a good horse at age 5.

To me he looked impressive today and could have a great year. He is 5, afterall.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Being better than weak competition is nowhere close to greatness. English Channel is an exceptionally good horse, who has kept his form for a long time now, and he's a commendable racehorse. However, he has never overcome a scintilla of adversity or beaten a particularly good horse. No, it's not his fault the competition has been weak, but he has failed to deliver even a marginally good effort in his three biggest races....the Arlington Million and two BC Turfs.

Take a look at some of the races Theatrical and Manila ran back in the late 80s. I'm not sure they were great....but they would have devoured English Channel. Theatrical won six or seven Grade 1s in 1987, from February through November, and Manila easily bested him in that year's Arlington Million ( unfortunately his last start ). Now those were really exceptional horses.

Help me Andy...in all sincerity...give me your view of why the AM or the 2 BC Turf races were not even "marginally good"

[Scav]

Originally Posted by T3B

Help me Andy...in all sincerity...give me your view of why the AM or the 2 BC Turf races were not even "marginally good"

His Million was ridiculous. Class alone got him 4th or whatever he finished, EC needed a xanax that day

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by T3B

Help me Andy...in all sincerity...give me your view of why the AM or the 2 BC Turf races were not even "marginally good"

He was ineffectual against a very weak field this year ( Red Rocks and Better Talk Now? ), he got drowned in 2005, and in the Arlington Million, while he dealt with a slow pace, it shouldn't have hurt him, as he has the speed to stay close ( and has run some of his better races on the pace ), and he had absolutely nothing in the stretch.

Losing by three lengths in turf races is like losing by six on the dirt in my opinion.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Take a look at some of the races Theatrical and Manila ran back in the late 80s. I'm not sure they were great....but they would have devoured English Channel. Theatrical won six or seven Grade 1s in 1987, from February through November, and Manila easily bested him in that year's Arlington Million ( unfortunately his last start ). Now those were really exceptional horses.

In regard to American turf horses, Manila and Theatrical both have to be considered great in my opinion.

From the forms and charts I've studied, and films I've seen, I would cast a vote for Manilla as the best American turf horse of all-time.

I actually thought English Channel's 3rd in the Breeders Cup Turf was a pretty solid effort---the two horses who beat him were aided by a ridiciously fast pace, and came from last and 2nd to last.