Maiden Derby winners

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He was great at beating anemic fields of truely weak horses, from a foal crop that was 1,680 in size.

I don't care who he beat or didn't beat... just LOOK AT HIM. Jesus...

I haven't seen a thoroughbred with a neck like that in my lifetime!

[Danzig]

according to the book i'm now reading by dorothy ours, about man o war, he was part of the fifth smallest foal crop registered.
but i think ID is too hung up on the size of the foal crop. i just got thru to the end of MOW's two year old season, in which he carried 130 earlier than any horse to date, more than once at that!, winning his races geared down and still either tying, nearing, or breaking records. those he faced also set down fast times. matter of fact, upset beat the record when he beat man o war, and considering that man o war was left at the start--well, you do the math! what he ran that race in is mindboggling--esp considering he was still only two.

First, to the original subject and maidens winning the Derby: Today it'd be all but impossible unless the maiden had a lot of high quality seconds in graded stakes because you need to be in the top 20 in graded stakes earnings to even qualify to run in the Kentucky Derby.

Now, for the real joke of the thread where people actually are performing revisionist history on Man O'War's career and status as the greatest racehorse in history. Sure a case can be made for either Secretariat, Citation, Native Dancer of even Kelso. But to call Man O'War massively overrated or way overrated and any part overrated is just comical at best and incredibily ignorant at worst. He lost one race in his career, set track and world records for speed, beat a Triple Crown winner straight up in a match race, and then turned into perhaps the greatest sire of all time. Any chance that those of you who think that Man O'War is overrated are part of the Babe Ruth is overrated, Bobby Jones is overrated, and Muhammad Ali is overrated fan club?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by FairPlay

First, to the original subject and maidens winning the Derby: Today it'd be all but impossible unless the maiden had a lot of high quality seconds in graded stakes because you need to be in the top 20 in graded stakes earnings to even qualify to run in the Kentucky Derby.

Now, for the real joke of the thread where people actually are performing revisionist history on Man O'War's career and status as the greatest racehorse in history. Sure a case can be made for either Secretariat, Citation, Native Dancer of even Kelso. But to call Man O'War massively overrated or way overrated and any part overrated is just comical at best and incredibily ignorant at worst. He lost one race in his career, set track and world records for speed, beat a Triple Crown winner straight up in a match race, and then turned into perhaps the greatest sire of all time. Any chance that those of you who think that Man O'War is overrated are part of the Babe Ruth is overrated, Bobby Jones is overrated, and Muhammad Ali is overrated fan club?

i think it's only one poster who says he's overrated, first time i've ever seen MOW called that. i've seen him lower than #1 on peoples all time list, but he's always on the list!!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i think it's only one poster who says he's overrated, first time i've ever seen MOW called that. i've seen him lower than #1 on peoples all time list, but he's always on the list!!

Yes----because turf writers are lazy and massively incompetent.

He was from the 2nd smallest foal crop of the 1900's---not the 5th.

The smallest foal crop of the 1900's featured only 15 fewer horses. The best of that crop was Morvich--who went into the Kentucky Derby with an 11-for-11 record--and won the Kentucky Derby to go 12-for-12.

Morvich was said to be a very ugly looking Cal bred....and he almost certainly wasn't that much horse inspite of his record.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yes----because turf writers are lazy and massively incompetent.

He was from the 2nd smallest foal crop of the 1900's---not the 5th.
The smallest foal crop of the 1900's featured only 15 fewer horses. The best of that crop was Morvich--who went into the Kentucky Derby with an 11-for-11 record--and won the Kentucky Derby to go 12-for-12.

Morvich was said to be a very ugly looking Cal bred....and he almost certainly wasn't that much horse inspite of his record.

this from legend like lightening by dorothy ours-page 15:

...he was one of 1961 thoroughbred foals registered in the united states that year. it would be the fifth-smallest crop of the entire twentieth century.


dorothy ours-from the book jacket--worked for seven years for the national museum of racing and hall of fame in saratoga springs new york, while researching man o war and has been cited for research contributions to several books on thoroughbred racehorses.


sorry, i'll go with her info.

and again, you're too hung up on foal crop size. also, keep in mind that it took years, sometimes decades, and in some cases hasn't happened YET where a horse ran faster than man o war. his travers is a case in point. NO horse has run the first six furlongs as fast as big red did in his travers, and crossed the finish line first.
and then there's the fact that man o war would set or equal track or american records eight times at three. one mile, one and one sixteenth, one and an eighth, one and one quarter, one and three eighths, one and one half, and one and five eighths. he topped triple crown winner sir bartons belmont mark by three seconds, setting an american record for that distance as well.

so, again, when there's no competition-there's the clock. man o war took that on, and won vs it many times. and many times his pps comments were never extended, under restraint, easing late, under a pull, etc.

he was voted best american racehorse of the first half of the 20th century in an ap poll of sports writers in 1950. bloodhorse magazine convened a panel of racing historians to rank the century's top hundred horses, man o war again. ap did a poll in '99, man o war again. lot of fools out there i guess...

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

this from legend like lightening by dorothy ours-page 15:

...he was one of 1961 thoroughbred foals registered in the united states that year. it would be the fifth-smallest crop of the entire twentieth century.


dorothy ours-from the book jacket--worked for seven years for the national museum of racing and hall of fame in saratoga springs new york, while researching man o war and has been cited for research contributions to several books on thoroughbred racehorses.


sorry, i'll go with her info.

And that would be yet another mistake on your part.

But hey, perhaps she is right and The Jockey Club is wrong...

http://www.jockeyclub.com/factbook.asp?section=1

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by FairPlay

Now, for the real joke of the thread where people actually are performing revisionist history on Man O'War's career and status as the greatest racehorse in history. Sure a case can be made for either Secretariat, Citation, Native Dancer of even Kelso. But to call Man O'War massively overrated or way overrated and any part overrated is just comical at best and incredibily ignorant at worst.

In context to him being rated the #1 horse of the 1900's, of course he's massively overrated, and anyone who can't see that is a complete fool. It's pretty obvious.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

In context to him being rated the #1 horse of the 1900's, of course he's massively overrated, and anyone who can't see that is a complete fool. It's pretty obvious.

how fortunate for you that you're so enlightened...

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I know.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time---and I obviously have no reason to bash a horse who was racing when my Grandpa was a year or two old---but, no one else seems to want to point out some pretty key things regarding Man O' War's competition---or lack there of.

[mark2061mn]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I know.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time---and I obviously have no reason to bash a horse who was racing when my Grandpa was a year or two old---but, no one else seems to want to point out some pretty key things regarding Man O' War's competition---or lack there of.

i believe that druggie here brings some much needed perspective to considering MOW as the greatest horse ever. Based on some of his points, i'd have to agree that he's unlikely the best ever, but on the other hand, his accomplishments on and off the track would seem to validate his overall greatness.

besides, anyone with a brain knows that indian charlie is the greatest horse ever!