Maiden Derby winners

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Man O' War isn't just overrated.....he's massively overrated and clearly does not belong in the top 25 horses of the 1900's.

And as for him ducking Exterminator......


"Kilmer was anxious to take on the super horse; it was Sam Riddle, Man o' War's owner, who appeared to duck the issue. Exterminator shipped from Saratoga to Canada where he won a stakes on August 28. Riddle immediately announced that Man o' war would contest the Saratoga Cup three days later figuring the coast was clear. When Kilmer got wind of this Exterminator was quickly brought back.

Racing writer David Alexander put it this way: "Exterminator came back to win the Saratoga Cup, despite the fact he had had a hard race three days before. When the frightening news of Exterminator's return reached Riddle, however, he withdrew Man o' War from the weight-for-age event."

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Man O' War isn't just overrated.....he's massively overrated and clearly does not belong in the top 25 horses of the 1900's.

And as for him ducking Exterminator......


"Kilmer was anxious to take on the super horse; it was Sam Riddle, Man o' War's owner, who appeared to duck the issue. Exterminator shipped from Saratoga to Canada where he won a stakes on August 28. Riddle immediately announced that Man o' war would contest the Saratoga Cup three days later figuring the coast was clear. When Kilmer got wind of this Exterminator was quickly brought back.

Racing writer David Alexander put it this way: "Exterminator came back to win the Saratoga Cup, despite the fact he had had a hard race three days before. When the frightening news of Exterminator's return reached Riddle, however, he withdrew Man o' War from the weight-for-age event."

man o war ran in the jockey club stakes, in which exterminator could have run, and his owner chose not to-it was weight for age, and evidently he didn't want to give weight to man o war.
exterminator was invited to that match race, and was pulled out. same reason, refusal to run under weight for age conditions. if he really felt he could beat man o war, why not run?
also, there had always been plans to run man o war at four-they felt there was plenty of time to face the gelding-but when they were told the kind of weight he'd have to carry, they retired him instead.

i just don't see how you can consider his abilities, under the weights he carried, the times he ran, and the ease with which he won, and think he's overrated. also consider the horsemen who thought he was so special. i mean, a three year old carrying 139. a two year old carrying 130 and above like it was nothing.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i just don't see how you can consider his abilities, under the weights he carried, the times he ran, and the ease with which he won, and think he's overrated. also consider the horsemen who thought he was so special.

So, he's justified as the #1 horse of the 1900's because he ran fast times for his day, carried a lot of weight, won by big margins, and horseman thought he was special?

Roseben carried 150lbs on multiple occasions (12lbs more than Man O' War ever carried) and routinely gave between 50-to-60 lbs in weight to his opposition. Oh yeah, in a 20 length victory, he also ran 7 furlongs at Belmont Park, in 1:22 flat, breaking the North American record by almost three full seconds.

His track record stood at Belmont for 51 years, until Bold Ruler broke it in 1957

Roseben also won 52 races. Needless to say, he wasn't in the top 100.

The greatest spin master of all-time could never make a rational case that this horse (Man O' War) accomplished more than a Secretariat, or Spectacular Bid, or a Dr. Fager.

And in my own personal opinion, from a talent standpoint, he was also light-years behind those horses.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

So, he's justified as the #1 horse of the 1900's because he ran fast times for his day, carried a lot of weight, won by big margins, and horseman thought he was special?

Roseben carried 150lbs on multiple occasions (12lbs more than Man O' War ever carried) and routinely gave between 50-to-60 lbs in weight to his opposition. Oh yeah, in a 20 length victory, he also ran 7 furlongs at Belmont Park, in 1:22 flat, breaking the North American record by almost three full seconds.

His track record stood at Belmont for 51 years, until Bold Ruler broke it in 1957

Roseben also won 52 races. Needless to say, he wasn't in the top 100.

The greatest spin master of all-time could never make a rational case that this horse (Man O' War) accomplished more than a Secretariat, or Spectacular Bid, or a Dr. Fager.

And in my own personal opinion, from a talent standpoint, he was also light-years behind those horses.

all i know is, you're the first person i've ever seen call the original big red overrated...very novel! bloodhorse ranked him #1, as did many others...most everyone else has him top five when we get into lists on here--top ten is the lowest, usually if people throw in international rankings.

as for man o war vs secretariat, they both have similarities--man o war usually comes out on top due to secs five losses. but man o war was the secretariat of his day-and most old timers said secretariat was man o war re-incarnated. as for doc fager, he gets less respect due to the fact he is considered to have lacked stamina, which is something the other two clearly did NOT.

have you ever read a detailed bio, or maybe even the t'bred times legends book on man o war? i think you're selling him short. but that's your right i suppose. i just can't imagine that so many would still be so in awe of him if he was undeserving.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i just can't imagine that so many would still be so in awe of him if he was undeserving.

IMO, You, and many others have GREATLY overestimated the skills of turf writers and horseman who were around during that time.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

EG, Your reading comprehension skills lack.

Among other things, I never said Exterminator carried 150lbs, it was Roseben and he did that on multiple occasions.

I only made the Roseben point, because another poster thought MoW deserved his ranking as #1 in the 1900's, because he 'carried a lot of weight, set a lot of records, and horseman thought he was special'

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Roseben carried 150lbs on multiple occasions (12lbs more than Man O' War ever carried) and routinely gave between 50-to-60 lbs in weight to his opposition. Oh yeah, in a 20 length victory, he also ran 7 furlongs at Belmont Park, in 1:22 flat, breaking the North American record by almost three full seconds.

His track record stood at Belmont for 51 years, until Bold Ruler broke it in 1957

Roseben also won 52 races. Needless to say, he wasn't in the top 100.