Maiden Derby winners

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

For the people who think that breeding microscopic size foal crops, somehow makes for deeper and more competitive top class racing and more talented horses.....

* The 1933 Kentucky Derby was won by a horse named Broker's Tip. Not only did he win the race as a maiden---but, he never won another race the rest of his career. His lifetime record was 14-1-2-1. His Derby is known as "the fightin' Derby" because his rider, and the rider of the 2nd place finisher were literally fighting with each other during the stretch run.

That same year, the legendary Seabiscuit was foaled. He lost five straight races at Rockingham Park, to run his lifetime record to 0-for-17, but heck, he sure did improve from there!

As for our first triple crown winner Sir Barton---he was 0-for-6 as a 2-year-old, and made his 3yo debut in the Kentucky Derby off an 8 month layoff. He was only entered by his trainer to be a rabbit for stablemate Billy Kellly.

Well, he was gunned to the lead, and never stopped. Billy Kelly finished 2nd. He won the Preakness 4 days later, the Withers 10 days after that, and than the Belmont Stakes.

Not that Seabiscuit, Sir Barton, and Billy Kelly weren't fine horses---however, it is impossible to do stuff like today. The horses are simply much more talented overall....and there is a much greater volume of them in training.

If a trainer even tried to run a maiden in the Kentucky Derby, off an 8 month layoff, simply to serve the purpose as a rabbit for his stablemate---not only would that horse not become a triple crown winner, but his trainer would be knocked pretty damn hard by the press.

Again, citing a couple isolated examples proves nothing! There have always been, and probably always will be horses that take awhile to "get it"....John Henry was bought for what? He turned his career around rather nicely didn't he? Then there was that horse who raced awhile and ran awful until they switched surfaces...he turned out ok...Cigar was his name I think! Recently there was a claimer who has done ok too...named Lava Man. Real Quiet and that horse of DWL's, had Antley given him a better ride in the Belmont...Also, when Sir Barton won the TC, there was no such thing...a decade later a NY writer coined the phrase, MOW's conections felt the Derby wasn't worth a trip "west". Maidens win stake races, it happens...with or without a buzzer!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

John Henry was bought for what? He turned his career around rather nicely didn't he?

Yes. But, John Henry didn't win his first Grade 1 race until he was a 5-year-old. He didn't exactly go from struggling at the bottom, to the best around, over night.

And, If you assume that only the best horses were being bred to each other (they weren't) back when the foal crops were so small---than there is no way John Henry would have existed.

Spectacular Bid's 2nd dam was a very mediocre horse, and his dam raced on the Northern California fair circuits. He's another that wouldn't have existed.

Secretariat's dam never won a race, but she came from a very good family. Affirmed's dam wasn't much horse, and she had eight siblings, none of which earned black type. Cigar's dam ran 7 times and never won.

Seattle Slew was sold for like 16K or something at auction.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yes. But, John Henry didn't win his first Grade 1 race until he was a 5-year-old. He didn't exactly go from struggling at the bottom, to the best around, over night.

And, If you assume that only the best horses were being bred to each other (they weren't) back when the foal crops were so small---than there is no way John Henry would have existed.

Spectacular Bid's 2nd dam was a very mediocre horse, and his dam raced on the Northern California fair circuits. He's another that wouldn't have existed.

Secretariat's dam never won a race, but she came from a very good family. Affirmed's dam wasn't much horse, and she had eight siblings, none of which earned black type. Cigar's dam ran 7 times and never won.

Seattle Slew was sold for like 16K or something at auction.

Ah, but those are modern examples you are using! And regarding breeding lines if you equate "best" to track performance, you are way off base...many Blue Hens did little on the track, breeding is a lot more complicated than simply looking at records of dam and sire.