Rise of CF

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

Well, even as a Christian, you should see the comments I get when I call the "Christian Right" out on their worship of America and question the theology behind their deep interest and concern for politics.

Nevertheless, do you think the collectivism of Clinton and/or Obama is any less dangerous?

Collectivism under any banner is dangerous, but as long as you're not an avowed Christian, your collectivism isn't so bad...heck, I'll probably even support it. I don't get it, really.

(PS: the abolitionist movement was rooted in what? MLK and many of his allies were what? Hint: not wicca or wiccans)

You might be surprised if you knew how many folks followed a pagan path but were unable to express same publicly. Dr King was a great man and a true Christian, not a demagogue spewing hatred under the guise of religion. I suspect I know far more about Christianity than you know about Wicca, otherwise you wouldn't accuse me of being against something solely because so-called Christians support it....Wiccans believe that all religions who worship a supreme being are in fact worshiping the same entity and hold no grudge against Christianity or any other religion...to each his own! Sure, we are a bit wary...centuries of persecution, torture and murder tend to make one cautious but to again quote Gandhi, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and the world will soon be blind and toothless". The fact remains that there is an element in this culture that is attempting to use their distorted view of Christianity to establish a fascist state...just as the Taliban used a perverted form of Islam to enslave the people in Afghanistan

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

OK. You still didn't answer the question.

Why is the Hillary/Obama version of forced collectivism any less objectionable than the Christian Right version? If it has nothing to do with the "Christian" part, what is it?

Both groups have a vision of utopia, and both are seemingly willing to use force or the threat of force to make it happen. You get all moist over one and say we should be scared of the other. If not because they are "Christians", what is it?

I don't frankly understand your allegation that Clinton and Obama have designs on "forced collectivism" as you put it...not saying you don't have a point, just saying I don't see the parallels here...please enlighten me and I'll be glad to respond!

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

Let me state it in a different way, using an instrument of coercion, ie the state, to advance their vision of utopia.

Utopia... WTF? Their vision of Utopia? You think any politician in the US thinks a democracy is going to work out some sort of social paradise? You have got to be kidding. No Rep. or Democrat that has a brain and common sense thinks a democracy can ever yield some sort of heaven. Get real.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Utopia... WTF? Their vision of Utopia? You think any politician in the US thinks a democracy is going to work out some sort of social paradise? You have got to be kidding. No Rep. or Democrat that has a brain and common sense thinks a democracy can ever yield some sort of heaven. Get real.

What he said!
Frankly, this is classic baba....use semantics and faulty analogy to try and change apples into oranges! I'm not gonna fall into your trap here...there is no practical comparison between the politics of a couple of centralist candidates and the goals of the so-called fundamentalist Christian movement. You've used this tactic before with others...sorry, but I'm not playing that game.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

Please.

If you think either of those folks are "centralists" (sic), then you are nuts...talk about wishful thinking about folks that get you all soft and silly. Look at their platforms, goals, etc.

Hell, some of the **** Hillary says are almost direct quotes from Hitler, Mussolini and a few other great "centralists" (fyi, some of who just happened to get voted in).


Of course, since you agree with "everything" in that article with all its overstatements and worse, and since you defend collectivists so long as they are not overt Christians, it is clear (along with your many other statements in the past) that you are a bigot. Plain and simple.

Well, I see why others simply ignore your posts...you try to engage in debate strictly on your terms, your rules, your definitions of what is "truth" and then when someone won't play your freshman-level psuedo-intellectual games, you resort to name-calling. OK, from this point I will refrain from reading your posts...feel free to post more tripe as "the last word".

[Downthestretch55]

Hey Somerfrost,
I don't know if you saw this about Repub candidate, Sen. McCain.
Some of the comments are hilarious.
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/02/12/mccain-creationism

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Hey Somerfrost,
I don't know if you saw this about Repub candidate, Sen. McCain.
Some of the comments are hilarious.
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/02/12/mccain-creationism

DTS, nothing new here...all candidates in both parties will start prostituting themselves now in order to solidify their base. McCain will attempt to separate himself from the likes of Rudy G. in order to appeal to the conservative base. Again, we hear about those who would replace the Constitution with "biblical law"...when it happens in Islamic countries, the same folks who propose it here are outraged...

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

That is the whole point of any politician with collectivist "tendancies" - to get society closer to their ideal. Get some historical perspective. Get real, indeed.

Closer to their ideal, thats fine. But pretending like Democratic candidates have some master plan for a Utopia, I guess you did not mean that...

And now you restate it as a terribly obvious statement. If you had stated the above in the first place I would have had no problem. But you wrote it like there is some garden of paradise Democratic candidates are trying to achieve and that will poison the world as you know it, thats silly.