"It's Groundhog Day.. again.."

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I think it sorta does make you a hypocrite, for what it's worth (at least as it pertains to this conversation), just like it makes any african-american a hypocrite who uses that 'we can, you can't' double standard for any one word. Anyone you know ever called someone a "dick?" Same thing, only who cares?

when i hear the word 'cunty' i hear it as a synonym for the word 'bitchy,' which in and of itself is not a patently offensive word.

and this coming from mr. semantically sensitive too....

Well I would say there IS a difference. The difference is that somebody does care. If we don't care if people call us a "dick" then it is okay to use the word. If women are offended by the word - and many are - than it shouldn't be used. It seems strange to tell somebody "You should not be offended by this or that, because I am not offended by this other thing." If they are offended by it I say fine.....let's not use it. I don't really care what their reason is.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Well I would say there IS a difference. The difference is that somebody does care. If we don't care if people call us a "dick" then it is okay to use the word. If women are offended by the word - and many are - than it shouldn't be used. It seems strange to tell somebody "You should not be offended by this or that, because I am not offended by this other thing." If they are offended by it I say fine.....let's not use it. I don't really care what their reason is.

Well obviously the first time I've ever used that word on the forum was in my previous post...it's not a prominent word in my vocabulary, so it's not like I'm going to have to all the sudden censor myself. So my post wasn't about me telling anyone what they can or cannot be offended by. But to decide that only certain people can say something is what I don't like and what I was trying to understand.

It's either offensive or it's not.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Well obviously the first time I've ever used that word on the forum was in my previous post...it's not a prominent word in my vocabulary, so it's not like I'm going to have to all the sudden censor myself. So my post wasn't about me telling anyone what they can or cannot be offended by. But to decide that only certain people can say something is what I don't like and what I was trying to understand.

It's either offensive or it's not.

I was not accusing you of using the word! I think I might disagree with you though about something always being offensive or never being offensive. My wife or my brother could say something to me and I wouldn't be offended by it, but if one of the undergraduates I teach said the same exact words to me, I might be offended. Do you see what I mean? I think the same thing holds true for a given word. Who says it.....and how they say it......can have a lot to do with the meaning of it.

[Downthestretch55]

I am the walrus,
I am the woodchuck....
Coo coo ca choo
Coo coo ca choo

btw...I found a red hair in a lower placement...OH MY! OH MY!
tweezer time.
Love the ignore, Advance. Spares a lot of wasted finger work.
Not you...the arguer.
He's the devil's advocate.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Well I would say there IS a difference. The difference is that somebody does care. If we don't care if people call us a "dick" then it is okay to use the word. If women are offended by the word - and many are - than it shouldn't be used. It seems strange to tell somebody "You should not be offended by this or that, because I am not offended by this other thing." If they are offended by it I say fine.....let's not use it. I don't really care what their reason is.

I think the reasoning behind it is that, when a Caucasian uses the word n***** against a black person, it's coming from a position of the stronger person using it to knock the weaker. Kicking the cripple, to borrow from Molly Ivins, as it were. Likewise when men use the word c***. When someone black or someone female uses the terms themselves, it's not starting from a position of superior economic or social or physical status; it's from an equal position because, on some level, it can apply to the speaker, too. Taking one to know one.

The fact is, "dick," "prick," "cock" or any other synonym for penis won't ever have the same power because we praise people by associated bravery with having the male equipment-- "ballsy," "cocky," "has cojones," "put his dick on the table," whatever. Whereas no one ever said, "man, she's got some clitoris" or "takes a lot of vagina to do that" or whatever. Call someone female and you're automatically calling them weak. We can call someone a d*ck, but it just doesn't have the same power because being male is not treated like something intrinsically bad- it's more often a compliment "act like a real man". Like "bitch," which doesn't bother me- on some level, I know I'm not a canine, whereas, I always know I have a c*nt. So it can't hurt the same way.

Does that clarify at all? It was good for me to think about it, actually. I'm pleased you called me out on it, really.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I think the reasoning behind it is that, when a Caucasian uses the word n***** against a black person, it's coming from a position of the stronger person using it to knock the weaker. Kicking the cripple, to borrow from Molly Ivins, as it were. Likewise when men use the word c***. When someone black or someone female uses the terms themselves, it's not starting from a position of superior economic or social or physical status; it's from an equal position because, on some level, it can apply to the speaker, too. Taking one to know one.

The fact is, "dick," "prick," "cock" or any other synonym for penis won't ever have the same power because we praise people by associated bravery with having the male equipment-- "ballsy," "cocky," "has cojones," "put his dick on the table," whatever. Whereas no one ever said, "man, she's got some clitoris" or "takes a lot of vagina to do that" or whatever. Call someone female and you're automatically calling them weak. We can call someone a d*ck, but it just doesn't have the same power because being male is not treated like something intrinsically bad- it's more often a compliment "act like a real man". Like "bitch," which doesn't bother me- on some level, I know I'm not a canine, whereas, I always know I have a c*nt. So it can't hurt the same way.

Does that clarify at all? It was good for me to think about it, actually.

I agree with your analysis completely.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I think the reasoning behind it is that, when a Caucasian uses the word n***** against a black person, it's coming from a position of the stronger person using it to knock the weaker. Kicking the cripple, to borrow from Molly Ivins, as it were. Likewise when men use the word c***. When someone black or someone female uses the terms themselves, it's not starting from a position of superior economic or social or physical status; it's from an equal position because, on some level, it can apply to the speaker, too. Taking one to know one.

The fact is, "dick," "prick," "cock" or any other synonym for penis won't ever have the same power because we praise people by associated bravery with having the male equipment-- "ballsy," "cocky," "has cojones," "put his dick on the table," whatever. Whereas no one ever said, "man, she's got some clitoris" or "takes a lot of vagina to do that" or whatever. Call someone female and you're automatically calling them weak. We can call someone a d*ck, but it just doesn't have the same power because being male is not treated like something intrinsically bad- it's more often a compliment "act like a real man". Like "bitch," which doesn't bother me- on some level, I know I'm not a canine, whereas, I always know I have a c*nt. So it can't hurt the same way.

Does that clarify at all? It was good for me to think about it, actually. I'm pleased you called me out on it, really.

I absolutely get the basis for what you're saying, and I got it before my original post -- I just don't agree with it all.

All that does, I believe, is continue to give those words power...the power that we so much abhor them having.

Call me a ******. I don't care. The word holds no power in my life and it puts me in no place of subordination (though the person using it may certainly be trying to create that effect). It only holds power because people let it, and because they are afraid of saying it for fear of offending someone who still gives that word power. I'd just as soon have nobody using the word at all, but if some people are going to continue to use it as something derogatory, I hold the belief that it is only offensive if I let it be...if I choose to let that word make me "less" than another.

I dont. So it's not.

I know we just approach it from different viewpoints, you're looking at it more sociologically and societally (which i'm familiar with), and I'm just looking at it on a person by person basis. An entire group can only be chained by a word if they allow themselves to be.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I absolutely get the basis for what you're saying, and I got it before my original post -- I just don't agree with it all.

All that does, I believe, is continue to give those words power...the power that we so much abhor them having.

Call me a ******. I don't care. The word holds no power in my life and it puts me in no place of subordination (though the person using it may certainly be trying to create that effect). It only holds power because people let it, and because they are afraid of saying it for fear of offending someone who still gives that word power. I'd just as soon have nobody using the word at all, but if some people are going to continue to use it as something derogatory, I hold the belief that it is only offensive if I let it be...if I choose to let that word make me "less" than another.

I dont. So it's not.

I know we just approach it from different viewpoints, you're looking at it more sociologically and societally (which i'm familiar with), and I'm just looking at it on a person by person basis. An entire group can only be chained by a word if they allow themselves to be.

And I absolutely see that viewpoint, too, but on some level, I also see how, by making racial and sexual epithets unacceptable to say, we are passively saying that having racial and sexual prejudices is unacceptable.

And honestly, Brian, I hate to say it, believing as strongly as I do in equal treatment for all of us, but it's different if you're a woman. If a straight man calls you a f*****, you probably stand a reasonable chance of being able to kick the sh*t out of him, being male yourself. We don't. A man calls us something we don't like, there's not much we can do because physically, nine times out of ten, he can beat the crap out of us. And I'm quite muscular and strong, but men are just physically stronger- my first boyfriend post-college was only 2 inches taller than I and maybe 20 pounds heavier, but he could pretty easily wrestle me to the ground. It's the way men are made and there's nothing I can do about it. And so, by calling me a derogatory term for my vagina, a guy is asserting that he's in a more powerful position than I am because ultimately, I can't do anything about him calling me those names, other than not sleep with him, and if you come down to it, he's strong enough to make that happen too if he wants. Ergo my non-issue with women using it, and my big issue with men using it. Make in unacceptable to use the words, and you make the inclination behind the word unacceptable too.

(Which is not to say a group claiming the words for themselves should substitute for actual attempts to make things better. I think it can be an easy substitute for working within those groups for real change.)

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

And honestly, Brian, I hate to say it, believing as strongly as I do in equal treatment for all of us, but it's different if you're a woman. If a straight man calls you a f*****, you probably stand a reasonable chance of being able to kick the sh*t out of him, being male yourself. We don't. A man calls us something we don't like, there's not much we can do because physically, nine times out of ten, he can beat the crap out of us.

I get ya, but then we also approach life differently because retaliating against someone's words with physical violence had not crossed my mind in my 23 years on the planet. I had never linked the two ideas -- you call me a name to prove you're stronger or better than me....i beat your ass to prove that you're not?

Now that I think about it..............

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

If a straight man calls you a f*****, you probably stand a reasonable chance of being able to kick the sh*t out of him, being male yourself. We don't. A man calls us something we don't like, there's not much we can do because physically, nine times out of ten, he can beat the crap out of us.

Speak for yourself! I'm whooping some ass!

J/K

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Speak for yourself! I'm whooping some ass!

J/K

i'd probably lose the fight, but by god he'd know he'd been in one!

we must never, ever, meet and go drinking together.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i'd probably lose the fight, but by god he'd know he'd been in one!

we must never, ever, meet and go drinking together.

LOL

It'd be dangerous. I can get a bit rowdy when provoked. HAHA

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

Yeah, but don't discount the way women beat men down...not in the physical sense, but it wears on ya just the same.

too true. there are women out there that i sneer down my nose at, they give the rest of us a bad name!

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

too true. there are women out there that i sneer down my nose at, they give the rest of us a bad name!

Danzig,
Too true! Speaking of noses, I've had mine in some interesting places.
Didn't give me a bad name, though.
So, do you know how the saying "keep your nose out of my business" got started?
I don't.
Never stopped me from getting down to business, and kind of fun at that.
Timm's buying the next round too. I voted.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Danzig,
Too true! Speaking of noses, I've had mine in some interesting places.
Didn't give me a bad name, though.
So, do you know how the saying "keep your nose out of my business" got started?
I don't.
Never stopped me from getting down to business, and kind of fun at that.
Timm's buying the next round too. I voted.

i don't know how it started either.

timms a good guy.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

"Cuz in a 69 my humpty nose will tickle your rear..."

Not many people here are gonna get that one either.

so MANY ways to go with that one.....

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

I'd rather have a physical ass-kickin any day. Because when its done, its done. But the mental rolodex of every fight and misdeed that can and will come up in any future fight...well, its just not fair!

well you just haven't found the right gal yet. we don't all do that. i know i don't. crap, i don't want stuff recycled that i've done.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

Yeah, but don't discount the way women beat men down...not in the physical sense, but it wears on ya just the same.

Oh, I'm not saying we can't be, well, that word I feel I can use and you shouldn't ( ). I've known some women who were just awful emotionally to their alleged "friends" and "boyfriends." And honestly, if we weren't such catty, backstabbing bitches to each other, I think women would be a lot farther along, politically and economically.

And I agree, Brian, violence is not an ideal situation. But at the base of every conflict, there's that implied threat- verbal fights degenerate into fistfights, not the other way around. And when it's guy vs. girl, one half of the conflict has a physical advantage.

Though how awesome would it be to live in a world where a physical fight was the "light" end of fighting and a verbal battle was for when it got really ugly? Holy cow; I've got a short film in that idea. Nobody steal it!

[randallscott35]

Nicole there are 2 women I work with who personify the "C" word. If it is deserved, it should be used....even if not to their face.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Nicole there are 2 women I work with who personify the "C" word. If it is deserved, it should be used....even if not to their face.

So see, Randall, you tell me and Cajun and Danzig who they are and then WE'LL call them that for you.