Declans Moon

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by stonegossard

Buzzards bay got an EASY trip/lead at OP. A lot of other horses could have won with the same set up. Was not an impressive race. The real Buzzards Bay showed his true colors next race.....where is the horse now?

Don't Get Mad was actually a horse I liked. But please...the Indiana Derby????? Was an ok horse.

Running 4th in the derby is ok..nothing to brag about. Losing to the worst derby winner in the history of derbies (Giacomo) isnt something to brag about.

Yeah...Action This Day was a nice horse...please...the horse was the worst BC winner ever. Horse didnt do **** before and was horrible after.....lightning struck the day he won the BC race....and it was Mandella ( a solid trainer) who trained the horse...not Ellis....

SO far you have given me Buzzards Bay.....Don't Get Mad....And to a lesser extent ATD. Sounds like the old tugboat needs to swing around..pick these 3 horses up...and head off to the Island of Misfit Horses with this group...

Dude, you can't be serious. Buzzard Bay's OP romp was one of the most impressive races of the entire year. He ran his guts out that day.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Dude, you can't be serious. Buzzard Bay's OP romp was one of the most impressive races of the entire year. He ran his guts out that day.

Some of the stuff you read here is incredible. A horse has a 3/4 of a length lead in :46 3/5, which is a very fast half at Oaklawn. The horse ended up blowing away the field by 6 lengths and the poster says that BB won because he got an easy lead. Unbelievable!

By the way, this whole discussion about Ellis is absurd. How could a bad trainer win graded stakes races at a 40% clip? How could a bad trainer have a win percentage of 29% in 2005? Those numbers are incredible. You have to be a really good trainer to have numbers like that.

Saying that Ellis did a terrible job with DM and ran him way over his head would be similar to saying that Pletcher did a terrible job with Flower Alley and ran him over his head in 2006. Neither trainer did a bad job. Sometimes horses just don't have it any more and sometimes you can't tell from watching them train. You think the horse still has it, but he doesn't.

[The Bid]

I think that sums it up pretty well. Declans Moon just isnt the same horse since the injuries.

Rupe, He backs up so quickly it almost looks like he bleeds, Im surprised to hear he scoped clean.

[Five Star Derek]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Some of the stuff you read here is incredible. A horse has a 3/4 of a length lead in :46 3/5, which is a very fast half at Oaklawn. The horse ended up blowing away the field by 6 lengths and the poster says that BB won because he got an easy lead. Unbelievable!

By the way, this whole discussion about Ellis is absurd. How could a bad trainer win graded stakes races at a 40% clip? How could a bad trainer have a win percentage of 29% in 2005? Those numbers are incredible. You have to be a really good trainer to have numbers like that.

Saying that Ellis did a terrible job with DM and ran him way over his head would be similar to saying that Pletcher did a terrible job with Flower Alley and ran him over his head in 2006. Neither trainer did a bad job. Sometimes horses just don't have it any more and sometimes you can't tell from watching them train. You think the horse still has it, but he doesn't.

Agreed
DM could look great in the morning and in the barn but just might not have the heart to race anymore. There are plenty of horses with great potential who fail to live up to that potential in barns everywhere. Ask any of the top trainers around and they'll all have stories of horses they thought would be great who failed to live up to their expectations. I loved this horse and looked forward to his comeback but I think Ellis is becoming a scapegoat. It might be in the horses head.

I think Declan's Moon has an unresolved problem that prevents him from competing effectively. My amateur opinion says it is psychological and a human needs to get into his head. Didn't Tom Smith do that with a horse named Seabiscuit!

Yesterday's performance was so bad that it hit the Yahoo News horse racing section. DM spit the bit at the 5/16 pole and quit, according to Valdivia.

He's got few options: running for a tag, getting picked up by the likes of Dutrow or Scott Lake, or a fluffer for the likes of Giacomo when he retires.

[Danzig]

declans moon was a good two year old. doesn't mean he won't get caught and passed by late bloomers.
also, he suffered an injury, and then some setbacks. it doesn't always work out when you try to bring a horse back after suffering an injury, everyone knows that. if the horse won't extend himself anymore, i don't care who the trainer is--you can't make the horse do something he isn't willing to do.

they're going to scan him, see if there is something they're missing.

[Danzig]

and maybe some are overlapping oneill and stevie wonderboys plans for a possible strub run w/ declans from the year before.

I'm not going to touch the debate about Ellis's training merits with a 10 foot pole.

However, a trainer change *may* help the horse, and it has nothing to do with how good or bad a trainer his current conditioner is. We just saw Miesque's Approval have a championship-level campaign this past year when he was moved from Mott's barn to Wolfson's barn. Does that mean Mott is a terrible trainer? Heck no. All it means is that different horses respond well to different environments.

And it could be that DM just doesn't want to do it anymore. If that's the case, then Charlie Whittingham himself could come down from heaven and not be able to make the horse run.

[stonegossard]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Dude, you can't be serious. Buzzard Bay's OP romp was one of the most impressive races of the entire year. He ran his guts out that day.

Most impressive races of the year? Now that is funny.....keep the jokes coming.....

Seems like a lot more than his guts came out of him during that race....talk about a one race wonder...

[Scav]

Originally Posted by stonegossard

Most impressive races of the year? Now that is funny.....keep the jokes coming.....

Seems like a lot more than his guts came out of him during that race....talk about a one race wonder...

If you recall, he ran a HELL of a Kentucky Derby all things considered. He was like 18 wide with Guidry and at one point took the lead on the turn, think he held for 5th or something.

I am speaking about Buzzard's Bay, just to clarify

[stonegossard]

Originally Posted by Scav

If you recall, he ran a HELL of a Kentucky Derby all things considered. He was like 18 wide with Guidry and at one point took the lead on the turn, think he held for 5th or something.

I am speaking about Buzzard's Bay, just to clarify

Was Buzzards Bay a terrible horse? Not at all.....I just think he was a one race wonder...and his record pretty much shows that....

[Scav]

Originally Posted by stonegossard

Was Buzzards Bay a terrible horse? Not at all.....I just think he was a one race wonder...and his record pretty much shows that....

Well, I disagree with you, and I am hoping he proves you wrong this year

[stonegossard]

Originally Posted by Scav

Well, I disagree with you, and I am hoping he proves you wrong this year

Thats cool.....and if he turns out to be a very good horse and win some nice races I will be the first to admit I was wrong...

But after his flop at CD and Ellis recent job with DM I wouldnt hold my breath

[Scav]

Originally Posted by stonegossard

Thats cool.....and if he turns out to be a very good horse and win some nice races I will be the first to admit I was wrong...

But after his flop at CD and Ellis recent job with DM I wouldnt hold my breath

I don't think DM is Ellis's fault, horse has lost 'it'. You can't teach 'it'. They have to have it.

I really don't see where you are going with busting Ellis. His %'s are amazing, and his horses are always well taken care of. You know, horses that get a taste of the farm sometimes lost 'it' and it looks like that has happened with DM. Could easily be a breathing problem also. who knows...

[The Bid]

I dont think Ron Ellis did a terrible job bringing Declans Moon back, hes just not much horse. He was a fantastic 2yo pre injury, and he may very well be the same exact horse today. The problem is all the other horses have matured and hes stayed the same or regressed.

Lets say hypothetically Declans Moon was in another barn, would he really be that much better? I mean the horse cant win at Golden Gate Fields for Christ sakes.

I dont think Ellis is a hall of fame trainer, but I dont think hes an idiot. Some guys are sharper than others but if you dont have the horse you just arent going to win, period.

Buzzards Bay Ive always really liked, hes a good looking horse, great looking

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by stonegossard

Was Buzzards Bay a terrible horse? Not at all.....I just think he was a one race wonder...and his record pretty much shows that....

I don't know how you can say BB is a one-race wonder. He is a mulitiple graded stakes winner. He won the Grade I Santa Anita Derby. He won the Grade III All American Handicap. He won the Grade II Oaklawn Handicap. He is obviously not a one-race wonder. A one race wonder is a horse that has only won one big race.

With regard to Ellis, his numbers speak for themselves. Bad trainers don't have years when they win at 29% clips. Bad trainers don't win graded stakes races at a 40% clip.

I noticed you are starting to backtrack a bit. At first you said that Ellis is terrible. Now you are saying that he is average.

What do you expect from him when he comes on TVG? I never said that he could make his living handicapping. I think he comes off fine on TVG. He comes off just as well as the other trainers that they have on.

[stonegossard]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't know how you can say BB is a one-race wonder. He is a mulitiple graded stakes winner. He won the Grade I Santa Anita Derby. He won the Grade III All American Handicap. He won the Grade II Oaklawn Handicap. He is obviously not a one-race wonder. A one race wonder is a horse that has only won one big race.

With regard to Ellis, his numbers speak for themselves. Bad trainers don't have years when they win at 29% clips. Bad trainers don't win graded stakes races at a 40% clip.

I noticed you are starting to backtrack a bit. At first you said that Ellis is terrible. Now you are saying that he is average.

What do you expect from him when he comes on TVG? I never said that he could make his living handicapping. I think he comes off fine on TVG. He comes off just as well as the other trainers that they have on.

Terrible job with DM/Average trainer.......

What do I expect from a trainer who comes on TVG to talk about horses? Not a whole lot....just not to be a blithering idiot at times....I loved it when he was on during the Del MAr Derby...I loved Get Funky.....Ellis...the brainiac that he is says the following about the horse:

"Well...I think the one thing about this horse is after the races we all like to get funky down here by the beach.....you need to consider that"

What in gods name is this idiot saying? Then during the post parade he said the same damn thing...

The guy is embarassing on TV.....He picked another horse to win....I was that much more comfortable betting Get Funky......he won at 6-1 rather easily...

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by stonegossard

Terrible job with DM/Average trainer.......

What do I expect from a trainer who comes on TVG to talk about horses? Not a whole lot....just not to be a blithering idiot at times....I loved it when he was on during the Del MAr Derby...I loved Get Funky.....Ellis...the brainiac that he is says the following about the horse:

"Well...I think the one thing about this horse is after the races we all like to get funky down here by the beach.....you need to consider that"

What in gods name is this idiot saying? Then during the post parade he said the same damn thing...

The guy is embarassing on TV.....He picked another horse to win....I was that much more comfortable betting Get Funky......he won at 6-1 rather easily...

I don't think his comment about "getting funky" at the beach is a big deal. That will hardly be the first time or last time that one of these guys will make a bad joke.

You are correct that there are time when some of these guys including Ellis will go on the air without doing their homework. Sometimes they don't have time. Ron sometimes goes on as a last minute replacement. Not only that, these trainers wake up at 5:00am, go to work and then have to sometimes go straight to the set at TVG. Sometimes they don't have time to prepare and they just handicap the races as they go along.

With regard to Tom Amoss, I think he can be hit or miss. I've seen him make some very insightful comments on "The Works". Other times, I've seen him say some really ridiculous things. The funniest thing is when he keeps saying that the horses' ears are forward because they are waiting for a command. He's right that it is a good sign when their are forward. Their ears come forward when they are enjoying themselves out there and are going really easy without much effort. A horse's ears will not be forward when they are fully exerting themselves. Anyway, when their ears are forward, they are not necessarily waiting for a command. It just means that they are going easy without much effort and are enjoying themselves. It may or may not mean that they are waiting for a command. But ever time Amoss is on, all he ever talks about is how the horse is waiting for a command.