Next Big Stallion? What is your opinion?

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

I'll say it once...ORIENTATE. His foals can RUN! I have seen so many that I like. I know that he was mostly a sprinter on dirt, but he also won stakes on the turf at a mile. I really like this horse. He was also sound upon retiring and he is a very classy looking animal.

I think Afleet Alex will become a very, very good sire also.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I'll say it once...ORIENTATE. His foals can RUN! I have seen so many that I like. I know that he was mostly a sprinter on dirt, but he also won stakes on the turf at a mile. I really like this horse. He was also sound upon retiring and he is a very classy looking animal.

I think Afleet Alex will become a very, very good sire also.

I agree with Jessica about Orientate. From what I have seen at the 2 year old sales this year, Orientate's offspring look great. I think he will be the hot new sire.

Why dont we just carry out little breeding experiments, see how nice they look as two year olds, and never let them on the track. The industry could make it like a dog show. We could parade them around and wager on who the judges think look the nicest. Just make racing totally into breeding and conformation. That sounds fun.

Let em run for Christ sakes.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Why dont we just carry out little breeding experiments, see how nice they look as two year olds, and never let them on the track. The industry could make it like a dog show. We could parade them around and wager on who the judges think look the nicest. Just make racing totally into breeding and conformation. That sounds fun.

Let em run for Christ sakes.

How they look conformation wise has a HUGE affect on how they run. I won't buy any horse that doesn't have a sloping shoulder, large nostrils and straight legs.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

How they look conformation wise has a HUGE affect on how they run. I won't buy any horse that doesn't have a sloping shoulder, large nostrils and straight legs.

That would be because you have linked those traits to how they run?

I would be inclined to always watch a horse RUN, before purchase. But because I dont purchase, I dont have the authority to say. But come on Gator, you are taking more of a risk buying a yearling that has never taken a good run with a jock aboard, compared to a two year old showing his stuff.

But its not a risk if you are buying a horse for a dog show.

Nostrils? I would be inclined to like horses with large nostrils unless it is linked to some other trait that is a defect. Horses breath through their nostrils. I will never forget a picture I saw of Candy Ride upon beating Megs, his Nostrils were huge.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by pgardn

That would be because you have linked those traits to how they run?

I would be inclined to always watch a horse RUN, before purchase. But because I dont purchase, I dont have the authority to say. But come on Gator, you are taking more of a risk buying a yearling that has never taken a good run with a jock aboard, compared to a two year old showing his stuff.

But its not a risk if you are buying a horse for a dog show.

Nostrils? I would be inclined to like horses with large nostrils unless it is linked to some other trait that is a defect. Horses breath through their nostrils. I will never forget a picture I saw of Candy Ride upon betting Megs, his Nostrils were huge.

Yes, you obviously take a HUGE risk in buying a yearling over a two year old in training. The advantage is that (if you know what you're looking at), you can sometimes get a horse for a lot cheaper than if you bought them as two year olds. Another advantage in yearling purchases for me is that you know that since they haven't been run, you break them and train them however you like. Horses have memories similar to elephants... they remember EVERYTHING and if they are broken the wrong way or started wrong, they don't run as well in the long run. Obviously, you're correct that you can't determine the run and heart of a yearling, but technically, you can't really see that until a horse runs in a race anyway.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Yes, you obviously take a HUGE risk in buying a yearling over a two year old in training. The advantage is that (if you know what you're looking at), you can sometimes get a horse for a lot cheaper than if you bought them as two year olds. Another advantage in yearling purchases for me is that you know that since they haven't been run, you break them and train them however you like. Horses have memories similar to elephants... they remember EVERYTHING and if they are broken the wrong way or started wrong, they don't run as well in the long run. Obviously, you're correct that you can't determine the run and heart of a yearling, but technically, you can't really see that until a horse runs in a race anyway.

So whats your fascination with nostrils? I'm serious. What do large nostrils in young animals indicate to you?

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

How they look conformation wise has a HUGE affect on how they run. I won't buy any horse that doesn't have a sloping shoulder, large nostrils and straight legs.

I misread your quote, I was going to say it makes no sense at all to me not to love big nostrils. Sorry. Big flaring nostrils it is.

[Scav]

the next big stallion.....ME!!!

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Why dont we just carry out little breeding experiments, see how nice they look as two year olds, and never let them on the track. The industry could make it like a dog show. We could parade them around and wager on who the judges think look the nicest. Just make racing totally into breeding and conformation. That sounds fun.

Let em run for Christ sakes.

You get to watch the horses work an 1/8th or even a 1/4 of a mile at the 2 year old sales. If you know what you are looking at, you will have a very good idea as to which sires are throwing runners. You don't need to wait until they run in a race to know which ones can run.
With yearlings, you can't tell nearly as much. However, even with yearlings you can make a good educated guess as to which ones can run. Last year we bought 15 yearlings for our pinhooking business. Every single one of them could run. Every single horse worked an 1/8th of a mile in :10 and change. Actually, there was one horse that worked :11 flat. That's pretty darn good. Basically every horse could run a little and some of them could run a lot.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You get to watch the horses work an 1/8th or even a 1/4 of a mile at the 2 year old sales. If you know what you are looking at, you will have a very good idea as to which sires are throwing runners. You don't need to wait until they run in a race to know which ones can run.
With yearlings, you can't tell nearly as much. However, even with yearlings you can make a good educated guess as to which ones can run. Last year we bought 15 yearlings for our pinhooking business. Every single one of them could run. Every single horse worked an 1/8th of a mile in :10 and change. Actually, there was one horse that worked :11 flat. That's pretty darn good. Basically every horse could run a little and some of them could run a lot.

A lot of thoroughbreds can run... it's how they perform in a race that sets apart the good ones and the bad ones. I had an appendix (he was my showjumper) that could beat my sister's thoroughbred (off the track, stakes winner of $100,000) up to a mile, but he had a herd mentality and would freak out if he got too far ahead of the others. To me, it takes an actual race or at the very least, a good 6 furlong work with 3 or 4 other horses to see how a horse really performs. Sometimes the most talented animals don't have it in them to actually win the races. JMO.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

A lot of thoroughbreds can run... it's how they perform in a race that sets apart the good ones and the bad ones. I had an appendix (he was my showjumper) that could beat my sister's thoroughbred (off the track, stakes winner of $100,000) up to a mile, but he had a herd mentality and would freak out if he got too far ahead of the others. To me, it takes an actual race or at the very least, a good 6 furlong work with 3 or 4 other horses to see how a horse really performs. Sometimes the most talented animals don't have it in them to actually win the races. JMO.

I'm obviously not going be able to tell you exactly what a horse will accomplish in his career based on an 1/8th of a mile work. There's no way to do that. I'm not trying to do that. I am trying to pick out stakes horses and if I'm right around 35% of the time, then I'm doing really well. I would expect all the horses I pick to be able to run. I would estimate that around 70% of the horses I pick will be able to break their maiden in their first couple of starts unless they are horses that look like they want to run really long.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I'm obviously not going be able to tell you exactly what a horse will accomplish in his career based on an 1/8th of a mile work. There's no way to do that. I'm not trying to do that. I am trying to pick out stakes horses and if I'm right around 35% of the time, then I'm doing really well. I would expect all the horses I pick to be able to run. I would estimate that around 70% of the horses I pick will be able to break their maiden in their first couple of starts unless they are horses that look like they want to run really long.

That makes complete sense. Thanks for the input.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I'm obviously not going be able to tell you exactly what a horse will accomplish in his career based on an 1/8th of a mile work. There's no way to do that. I'm not trying to do that. I am trying to pick out stakes horses and if I'm right around 35% of the time, then I'm doing really well. I would expect all the horses I pick to be able to run. I would estimate that around 70% of the horses I pick will be able to break their maiden in their first couple of starts unless they are horses that look like they want to run really long.

If you could add heart with the obvious athletes, then that 35% would go way up. I am very partial to horses that dont quit, especially after big setbacks. The problem is figuring out which horses they are. And that of course is done on the track.

But who cares about all this. I wanna see athletes compete on the track, not in the shed. Thats why the thread is interesting, but at the same time a bit disconcerting.
But I understand the fascination as genetics is a very inexact science. One day someone is going to find the combination of genes that have the highest probability of making good runners. Then all hell will break loose. They are mapping the Thoroughbred genome as we speak. In fact, they may be done. Cornell was coordinating and distributing the work. It will be interesting to see how people take this data and try to correlate it with performance. Its coming.

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I agree with Jessica about Orientate. From what I have seen at the 2 year old sales this year, Orientate's offspring look great. I think he will be the hot new sire.

I agree with Jessica as well, when the first photo's of Orientate's weanlings hit the mags I was struck by how iniform they all looked, extremely strong in the hindquarters and the set of their necks is great, they look so athletic, I see them being runners.

I also think Empire Maker will be an exciting stallion as he was very precocious for an Unbridles and I don't think we nearly saw the best of him, he would have been great on turf as well, and the pedigree is to die for.

The two I'm hoping make it big time, due to their class and heart on the track are Congaree and Medaglia d' Oro, we can sure use some warriors like those guys, I adored them both.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

I agree with Jessica as well, when the first photo's of Orientate's weanlings hit the mags I was struck by how iniform they all looked, extremely strong in the hindquarters and the set of their necks is great, they look so athletic, I see them being runners.

I also think Empire Maker will be an exciting stallion as he was very precocious for an Unbridles and I don't think we nearly saw the best of him, he would have been great on turf as well, and the pedigree is to die for.

The two I'm hoping make it big time, due to their class and heart on the track are Congaree and Medaglia d' Oro, we can sure use some warriors like those guys, I adored them both.

Go check out some of Orientate's two year olds in training at barretts.com and the Keeneland sales. Watch the babies fly! They are incredibly precocious and beautiful moving animals too.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Go check out some of Orientate's two year olds in training at barretts.com and the Keeneland sales. Watch the babies fly! They are incredibly precocious and beautiful moving animals too.

his first winner placed in a small listed stake recently--can't remember where though. Name is Lost On Champagne (she's a looker too)

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Go check out some of Orientate's two year olds in training at barretts.com and the Keeneland sales. Watch the babies fly! They are incredibly precocious and beautiful moving animals too.

For another $20K you can get Afleet Alex on the same farm. Not impressed with Orientates on the track right now.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Hoisttheflag

For another $20K you can get Afleet Alex on the same farm. Not impressed with Orientates on the track right now.

May I ask why not?

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

May I ask why not?

I am just not a believer in them being anything but sprinters. He had arguably the best mares out there and I just thought they would be a little more impressive. I probably set the expectations too high on him but he will always be nothing more than a sprinter to me. I probably will eat my words on this one next year when they turn 3, but I still am not a believer.