Get us out...or CNN out

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

I'm not talking that it occurs in the modern era....

War is ugly, I don't like it...so don't mistake me for a war monger. Modern...rules of engagement, ethical treatment of POW's...etc. Geneva convention.

and yes I'm aware some of these statutes have been broken by our own country.

that's where we're not connecting here, is that your definition of modern war renders this entire conversation moot. if, in order to be a modern war, people have to follow those rules -- then there is no such thing as modern war because that will never be entirely achieved by any army from any country in a full-fledged war. In your definition of modern war, rape does not exist because everyone is polite and follows the "rules" -- so because rape does still exist as a tactic of war, what then do we consider to be modern war?

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

that's where we're not connecting here, is that your definition of modern war renders this entire conversation moot. if, in order to be a modern war, people have to follow those rules -- then there is no such thing as modern war because that will never be entirely achieved by any army from any country in a full-fledged war. In your definition of modern war, rape does not exist because everyone is polite and follows the "rules" -- so because rape does still exist as a tactic of war, what then do we consider to be modern war?

I think we're closer than it appears, of course it can't be entirely achieved, but is the Sudan different as a civilized nation and does that civil war have anything in common with war in Iraq, other than it is ugly and sensless? I think it's clear it's ordered in Sudan. Are the minority of US soldiers that commit rape doing this to gain a tatical advantage on the enemy? Or is it a result of the stress and horror, maybe underlying character in some?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

I think we're closer than it appears, of course it can't be entirely achieved, but is the Sudan different as a civilized nation and does that civil war have anything in common with war in Iraq, other than it is ugly and sensless? I think it's clear it's ordered in Sudan. Are the minority of US soldiers that commit rape doing this to gain a tatical advantage on the enemy? Or is it a result of the stress and horror, maybe underlying character in some?

I don't think the wars are too similar, but atrocities are atrocities no matter which way you cut it.

I wouldn't purport that American soldiers who rape Iraqis do so in order to get a leg-up on the enemy. In Sudan, the case is strikingly different. Rape embodies the concept of a war tactic. Rape is a humiliating, dehumanizing experience. Watching enemy soldiers rape one's wife creates a very distinct tactical advantage by changing the emotional state of those people. Multiply this by the thousands and thousands of rapes that are occurring, and you have rape being used as a tactic of war.

It's just not a tactic that American soldiers use.

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I don't think the wars are too similar, but atrocities are atrocities no matter which way you cut it.

I wouldn't purport that American soldiers who rape Iraqis do so in order to get a leg-up on the enemy. In Sudan, the case is strikingly different. Rape embodies the concept of a war tactic. Rape is a humiliating, dehumanizing experience. Watching enemy soldiers rape one's wife creates a very distinct tactical advantage by changing the emotional state of those people. Multiply this by the thousands and thousands of rapes that are occurring, and you have rape being used as a tactic of war.

It's just not a tactic that American soldiers use.

And I re-read GR's post and apologized, man we took a long time getting here....but at least I'm almost done with work...lol

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

And I re-read GR's post and apologized, man we took a long time getting here....but at least I'm almost done with work...lol

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Hey, MinnSkinny, where do you stand-- rape is a tactic of war as old as war. Would you support American men raping Iraqi women to intimidate the men? Is that appropriate? How about raping children? What, exactly, do you think the soldiers should be doing that the presence of CNN is keeping them from doing? Tell me, would you support our soldiers raping women and children? That's a very effective win dirty tactic. Would you support it? Where is your line?

We just ran a big circle around the comment that started our whole conversation

Was the original poster implying that without CNN there, that our troops would resort to such tactics? Of course they wouldn't, so what does the original poster think we should be doing that we currently cannot?

Then I just got carried away proving that rape is a tactic of war, which had nothing to do with anything at all.

[dr. fager]

Yeah, I really need to work on my comprehension skills...and that's depressing. I used to be sharp...lol

[Cajungator26]

I apologize too.



I hate war too, but I feel for our soldiers (friends and family for many of us) that have to fight this war.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

We just ran a big circle around the comment that started our whole conversation

Was the original poster implying that without CNN there, that our troops would resort to such tactics? Of course they wouldn't, so what does the original poster think we should be doing that we currently cannot?

Then I just got carried away proving that rape is a tactic of war, which had nothing to do with anything at all.

Brian,
The tactic of blaming the messanger rather than the message has been around for quite a while. Is there any wonder why the flag draped coffins are flown back at night to Dover, where only the military has access?
Who came up with the concept of imbedding the press in the first place?
In my humble view, if the people are uniformed of the reality, the unreality is much easier to sell.
I think the last number for killed reporters is 67. Kill the messangers. The story is still the same.
Jefferson said that the government derived its just consent from "informed" people that it governs.
Denying information makes a mockery of the premise on which this nation was founded.

[Downthestretch55]

Someone told me that I've been insulted by being called a hypocrite.
If that's the case, do me a favor and quote it.
If any war monger wishes to supply the definition of "victory", I'm listening.
Facts, not personal attacks.
Definition of "victory" is ____________________.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

that's where we're not connecting here, is that your definition of modern war renders this entire conversation moot. if, in order to be a modern war, people have to follow those rules -- then there is no such thing as modern war because that will never be entirely achieved by any army from any country in a full-fledged war. In your definition of modern war, rape does not exist because everyone is polite and follows the "rules" -- so because rape does still exist as a tactic of war, what then do we consider to be modern war?

Brian,
Sometimes we get bogged down about splitting hairs.
Is it worse to rape someone or just kill them?
Maybe burning with napalm makes sense, or cluster bombs, or mines.
Do we really need to qualify the level of barbarism to make it saleable?
Does it make us feel more righteous?
Some people have numbed their consience to the tragedy.
They'll dig their heels in an try to continue to convince others of the validity of the actions they support.
Yet, they remain silent on the question of "victory".
Cemetaries are very quiet places.

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Brian,
Sometimes we get bogged down about splitting hairs.
Is it worse to rape someone or just kill them?
Maybe burning with napalm makes sense, or cluster bombs, or mines.
Do we really need to qualify the level of barbarism to make it saleable?
Does it make us feel more righteous?
Some people have numbed their consience to the tragedy.
They'll dig their heels in an try to continue to convince others of the validity of the actions they support.
Yet, they remain silent on the question of "victory".
Cemetaries are very quiet places.

you've got me all wrong DTS, you really do. But I've always liked you since ESPN....your compassion is relentless and that's admirable.

I'm really sorry you feel the way you do about me...I want them home too.

If someone could quote me on this, I'd appreciate it, I think he has me on ignore.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

you've got me all wrong DTS, you really do. But I've always liked you since ESPN....your compassion is relentless and that's admirable.

I'm really sorry you feel the way you do about me...I want them home too.

Thanks Dr Fager. Thanks!
I'm not giving up. There's far to much at stake.
Keep fighting against the hate, the ignorant, and those that believe murder is a way to gain.
Speak truth to lies.
Thanks!!!

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

you've got me all wrong DTS, you really do. But I've always liked you since ESPN....your compassion is relentless and that's admirable.

I'm really sorry you feel the way you do about me...I want them home too.

If someone could quote me on this, I'd appreciate it, I think he has me on ignore.

Dr Fager,
Believe me, you're not on my ignore.
Only one guy is, and since he just showed up, I'm out.
DTS