Get us out...or CNN out

[brianwspencer]

GR,

That was beautiful. As much as I sometimes fancy my own writing skills, I could not have said it better with three days to think about it.

[GenuineRisk]

Thanks, brian, but rereading it, I need to clarify something that was part of something I later cut out because I'm longwinded enough--

I'm not saying I think "tough noogies; you signed up for it" about our soldiers over there (looking at my comments about voluntary enlistment). I still think we were deliberately misled into war by this Administration because they really thought they could pull this off and win before their lies caught up with them. And I think our army works hard, and quite frankly, is not well-paid for what they do or well-supported when they return from war. And I think while enlisting is voluntary, that the men and women who enlist believe that our government would never send them into danger unless there were no other alternative. And I think this administratin willfully sent them into danger and death without reason, and I think that was a huge breach of faith with the military. And a huge breach of humanity and humility on the part of the President and Vice President.

[dr. fager]

Only I issue I take that rape is a tactic of modern war. I think it's an insult to the men and women that serve us. but I'll definitely check with my future father in law and brother in law. One was a linquist in Vietnam and one was a Marine. I'll ask them how rape class was in basic training.

Now am I naive that it hasn't happened in every war? No, however I don't believe that in modern war it's instructed or ordered. War is ugly....it changes people.

Also the adopt a soldier site, that you yourself posted on here, I saw several entries asking for candy for the children....a lot of men and women who do have compassion for the Iraqi people. But I guess if you saw the release on the real Iraq plan Shock, Awe, & Rape...I'll take your word on it.

[Downthestretch55]

GR,
Thanks for saying it again and again.
You are spot on!
Others use racist names, just like during Vietnam days the indigenous people were called "gooks".
When anyone dehumanizes his fellow human inhabitants on this planet, it only demonstrates the justification for abhorent policies and actions.
If any war monger reads this, please answer only one question so as to demonstrate your intelligence, define the word "victory".
Thank you. Also, facts, not personal attacks.

[Cajungator26]

Sorry, GR, but I'm with Bill on this...

Who are you to assume that our soldiers are rapists? Please inform me as to where you're getting that information. My father served in Vietnam and he never ONCE touched a Vietnamese woman or child.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Sorry, GR, but I'm with Bill on this...

Who are you to assume that our soldiers are rapists? Please inform me as to where you're getting that information. My father served in Vietnam and he never ONCE touched a Vietnamese woman or child.

Cajun,
I really like you as a person.
Have you heard about Haditha?
I also know much about Vietnam. Try Mei Li, Medina, Calley.
Google will do.
"Victory"? Anyone????
DTS

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Cajun,
I really like you as a person.
Have you heard about Haditha?
I also know much about Vietnam. Try Mei Li, Medina, Calley.
Google will do.
"Victory"? Anyone????
DTS

Did you serve, Wayne?

Rather than using google.com, I have found that I've learned a lot more about it just by talking to the people in this country that have served. (My Dad being one of them.)

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Did you serve, Wayne?

Rather than using google.com, I have found that I've learned a lot more about it just by talking to the people in this country that have served. (My Dad being one of them.)

No Cajun,
I didn't. I was in college (student deferment). Alas, I lost too many friends, and those that returned were either very badly crippled, or saw the folly of their actions and organized the local college branch of Vets Against the War.
I was in the Students Mobilization to End the War.
Sidenote, my son's girl friend is a psychology post grad doing counseling with returned vets from Iraq, her thesis is about post traumatic stress disorder.
Too many stories to tell.
There has to be a better way. There has to be.
If we are unable to find that way, we'll only continue to cause others to suffer, as we do ourselves.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Did you serve, Wayne?

Rather than using google.com, I have found that I've learned a lot more about it just by talking to the people in this country that have served. (My Dad being one of them.)

Cajun,
I don't think the Iraqi insurgents are fighting "fair", IED's and all.
Bad things happen in any conflict, from both sides.
You asked about Haditha, and here's today's story. Careful if you read it... the children in their pajamas kind of choked me up.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...010502248.html

These kinds of things only inflame the resistance.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

Only I issue I take that rape is a tactic of modern war. I think it's an insult to the men and women that serve us. but I'll definitely check with my future father in law and brother in law. One was a linquist in Vietnam and one was a Marine. I'll ask them how rape class was in basic training.

......

But I guess if you saw the release on the real Iraq plan Shock, Awe, & Rape...I'll take your word on it.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Sorry, GR, but I'm with Bill on this...

Who are you to assume that our soldiers are rapists? Please inform me as to where you're getting that information. My father served in Vietnam and he never ONCE touched a Vietnamese woman or child.

Let's not pretend it doesn't still happen, and let's not pretend that it doesn't happen at the hands of American troops.

Nobody here has ever said that American soldiers are inhumane or that they have no compassion for Iraqi women, children, or anyone else. Nobody here has said, or insinuated in any way, that American soldiers are generally rapists. By and large, American soldiers are heroes in every sense of the word.

But they aren't all perfect, and it's not wrong to point it out.

I didn't even have to scroll down the page at google.com to find this gem for you: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1789544.shtml

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Let's not pretend it doesn't still happen, and let's not pretend that it doesn't happen at the hands of American troops.

Nobody here has ever said that American soldiers are inhumane or that they have no compassion for Iraqi women, children, or anyone else. Nobody here has said, or insinuated in any way, that American soldiers are generally rapists. By and large, American soldiers are heroes in every sense of the word.

But they aren't all perfect, and it's not wrong to point it out.

I didn't even have to scroll down the page at google.com to find this gem for you: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1789544.shtml

Of course it happens! It happens here all of the time, but guess what, it's not a tactic of war. While I'm at it, let me point out to you that Orlando has one of the highest murder and rape rates in the country. Is that a tactic of war too? I just think that to word it the way it was worded was inaccurate...

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

Now am I naive that it hasn't happened in every war? No, however I don't believe that in modern war it's instructed or ordered. War is ugly....it changes people.

Brian, I clearly did say it occurs...however a tactic of war? It's an awful thing that definitely occurs....but I for one do think it's the minority and not the majority.

and you edit out the part of my post that says that?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

but I for one do think it's the minority and not the majority.

So does everyone else here, as far as I can tell -- so I'm not sure why everyone is getting all defensive and accusing people of insinuating that all American soldiers are rapists...

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

Brian, I clearly did say it occurs...however a tactic of war?

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Of course it happens! It happens here all of the time, but guess what, it's not a tactic of war. While I'm at it, let me point out to you that Orlando has one of the highest murder and rape rates in the country. Is that a tactic of war too? I just think that to word it the way it was worded was inaccurate...

Sudan.

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Sudan.

I wouldn't consider that modern war. Guess who is the peacekeeping force?


Peace is the only solution to the suffering of the Sudanese people. Recent efforts by the U.S. Special Envoy for Peace in Sudan,

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

I wouldn't consider that modern war. Guess who is the peacekeeping force?


Peace is the only solution to the suffering of the Sudanese people. Recent efforts by the U.S. Special Envoy for Peace in Sudan,

What qualifies as "modern" war, if not a war occurring at this very moment?

I've got to get that clarified before i can comment any further, because if we don't even see the word "modern" in the same way, then it's pointless to further talk about Sudan even though it's the single best example out there.

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

What qualifies as "modern" war, if not a war occurring at this very moment?

I've got to get that clarified before i can comment any further, because if we don't even see the word "modern" in the same way, then it's pointless to further talk about Sudan even though it's the single best example out there.

I'm not talking that it occurs in the modern era....

War is ugly, I don't like it...so don't mistake me for a war monger. Modern...rules of engagement, ethical treatment of POW's...etc. Geneva convention.

and yes I'm aware some of these statutes have been broken by our own country.