Lukas down to 40 horses

that is ridiculous. shows complete lack of knowledge of lukas training program. lukas is anything but hard on a horse. he's one of the softest trainers around, which is also why he injures a lot of horses. if you watch lukas over the years he vascillates back and forth between soft training and somewhat toughter training. Lukas: "I do not work horses". lukas breezes them fairly slow every 8-10 days. does a few gallops in between at 18sec/f. and races them. that is about it. if you disbelieve the post read Ross Staaden's Winning Trainers on the subject. There is page after page of Lukas training logs. For the uninformed--it is wise to equate hard training with unsound horses, and soft training with trainers that injure horses. there's a large correlation.

rewrite part of that last post: equate sound horses with hard trainders--injured horses with soft trainers. anyone doubt it, i'll be glad to post the training of Nashua for his match race with swaps.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ratherrapid

rewrite part of that last post: equate sound horses with hard trainders--injured horses with soft trainers. anyone doubt it, i'll be glad to post the training of Nashua for his match race with swaps.

Times have changed a little since Swaps and Nashua ran. Nowadays every trainer out there will tell you that the harder you train them, the more likely they are to get hurt. There's no doubt about that and it's not even debatable. The only quetsion is how hard to train them to give them their best chance of winning without breaking them down. It's somewhat of a "catch 22". For example, if you have a good horse that has never run before, if you really want him to win first-time out, his best chance of winning will be if you give him some fast works. The problem is that if you work him fast, you are increasing the chances that the horse wil get hurt before he even makes his first start.

Wih regards to Lukas, he breaks down more horses than anyone. The numbers speak for themselves. He has more sore horses than anyone else. He runs his horses into the ground. He has a terrible reputation and that is why he has a very hard time getting owners these days.

[ELA]

So, I have -- what only some might consider -- an interesting question. How many people who have posted on this thread have a trainer's license? I for one volunteer that I don't have one. For that matter, who has real data -- real #'s -- to support the claims made here?

Look, I am not saying Wayne is hard or easy on his horses. I am on the backstretch everyday at Saratoga, and maybe a couple of times a week or so throughout the rest of the year -- and I am not stating anything as fact! Seems others are, so I would think they can back it up. However, I do question those who do defintively make claims such as this, especially when they appear to be stated as facts.

We all know that Lukas has spotted horses very aggressively. Whether it's him, the owner, a combination, who knows. Not anyone here I would think. However, I think there is a large leap to some of the other claims made here. I'd like to see the #'s that prove some of these claims.

Eric

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ELA

So, I have -- what only some might consider -- an interesting question. How many people who have posted on this thread have a trainer's license? I for one volunteer that I don't have one. For that matter, who has real data -- real #'s -- to support the claims made here?

Look, I am not saying Wayne is hard or easy on his horses. I am on the backstretch everyday at Saratoga, and maybe a couple of times a week or so throughout the rest of the year -- and I am not stating anything as fact! Seems others are, so I would think they can back it up. However, I do question those who do defintively make claims such as this, especially when they appear to be stated as facts.

We all know that Lukas has spotted horses very aggressively. Whether it's him, the owner, a combination, who knows. Not anyone here I would think. However, I think there is a large leap to some of the other claims made here. I'd like to see the #'s that prove some of these claims.

Eric

The numbers are staggering. People don't just make this stuff up. Some of the major insurers will not insure his horses because of the numbers.

[ELA]

So, does this mean you have the data, proof, etc.? Or is is true just because you say "people don't just make this stuff up"? On this new claim, regarding the insurance, I for one would be very interested in hearing more about this and seeing the proof as I am in the insurance business.

Let's see the numbers. I am sure there are numerous others here besides me who would like to see them.

Eric

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ELA

So, does this mean you have the data, proof, etc.? Or is is true just because you say "people don't just make this stuff up"? On this new claim, regarding the insurance, I for one would be very interested in hearing more about this and seeing the proof as I am in the insurance business.

Let's see the numbers. I am sure there are numerous others here besides me who would like to see them.

Eric

If you are that interested, then call some of the thoroughbred insurance companies. They have the data.

I don't know how many times Darrel Strawberry has been arrested for drugs. It may be 4 times, it may be 6 times, I have no idea. I don't know the exact number and I really don't care. I do know that Strawberry used to have a drug problem. I don't need to document how may times he was arrested to state that he had a problem.

Lukas breaks down so many horses that many insurance companies won't insure his horse. I don't have the numbers in front of me. I don't know what the exact numbers are. I do know that the numbers are extreme. If you really want to know the exact numbers, then call some insurance companies and find out.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The numbers are staggering. People don't just make this stuff up. Some of the major insurers will not insure his horses because of the numbers.

i wish i had a dollar for every time this shows up...i knew as soon as this thread started this, and you, would show.

dwl is older, with up and comers stealing his thunder-especially those who trained under him, such as pletcher and mcglaughlin. it's a dog eat dog world out there, and dwl was at the top for years. YEARS. it's time he slowed down, altho he still shows flashes of the talent/brilliance that got him to the top...it happens to everyone. look at nascar for instance. richard petty wasn't called the king for nothing. he went downhill in the latter part of his career. happens to them all. nfl--brett favre. michael jordan pre-baseball was better than mj pro-baseball. it's life.

does lukas break down more than mandella? mclaughlin? pletcher? mcgaughey?
if, as rupert suggests, breakdowns are caused by breeding instead of training, why blame lukas for breaking down horses? what does it prove that some insurance company refuses to insure Lukas. I did not know it was the trainer that got the insurance. thought it was the owner.

[estreetposse]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Wih regards to Lukas, he breaks down more horses than anyone. The numbers speak for themselves. He has more sore horses than anyone else. He runs his horses into the ground. He has a terrible reputation and that is why he has a very hard time getting owners these days.

My thoughts exactly. Since the good o'l boy network is not around any more (Padua, BB Lewis, Overbrook, etc.) he has been getting less and less horses.

Prime example of D. Wayne (who was my favorite trainer when i first started betting the horse): Going Wild; was overmatched by Bellamy Road in the 2005 Wood (along with the rest of the field, but Going Wild did finish a DISTANT last). So what does Lukas do, hey let's take a shot at the Kentucky Derby, where not only Bellamy Road is but 18 other top 3 YO's in country are going to be. If my memory serves me correctly, only 2 horses came out of the 2005 Wood and went on to compete in the 2005 Derby, Bellamy Road and Going Wild. I'm pretty sure at the time Lukas had a incredible streak going of consecutive Derby entries (not sure how many, but it was broke last year i know that), so Going Wild ends up finishing 18th of 20. What good does that do for you or your horse (other than a notch on the breeding resume). Maybe he was getting heavy input from BB Lewis to enter the horse? I don't know the answer to that question, but i do know that that horse should have never been entered in that race. As for the present day, i couldn't tell you where Going Wild is.........anyone know?

-bt-

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by -BT-

As for the present day, i couldn't tell you where Going Wild is.........anyone know?

I won't claim to have any real knowledge of the issue, but I do have the one good example of watching him (or his owners or someone...) ruin a potentially good horse.

Ex Caelis had the makings of a very talented horse early on and she was just terribly managed: spotted way over her head almost her entire career so far, and just got progressively worse and worse on the racetrack when she should have been a legitimate graded stakes contender.

Not sure what contributes to that overall, but it certainly didn't endear him to me any.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I won't claim to have any real knowledge of the issue, but I do have the one good example of watching him (or his owners or someone...) ruin a potentially good horse.

Ex Caelis had the makings of a very talented horse early on and she was just terribly managed: spotted way over her head almost her entire career so far, and just got progressively worse and worse on the racetrack when she should have been a legitimate graded stakes contender.

Not sure what contributes to that overall, but it certainly didn't endear him to me any.

Good point. I remember that horse as many others do too. Lukas has been known, according to the masses and people who truly have qualified opinions, to place horses over their head, very aggressively, etc. He has a reputation of wanting to be "at the big dance" so to speak. I don't know if that's true or not. Like I said, I don't know if the spotting of his horses are his doing, the owners, a combination, etc.

I think very often "perception" becomes the "reality", or things that are somewhat, sometimes, slightly true, etc. -- often become the norm, always true, the standard, etc.

I guess we will soon see -- the proof that is.

Eric

[1st_Saturday_in_May]

Originally Posted by -BT-

i couldn't tell you where Going Wild is.........anyone know?

-bt-

Lukas actually ran Going Wild on Derby Day (ran 18th of 20 in the Derby), Preakness Day (ran 14th of 14 in the Preakness), and Belmont Day (ran 6th of 8 in the Riva Ridge-now Woody Stephens sprint). He was 7th of 9 in the Amsterdam and 3rd of 7 in the KY Cup Sprint. He got some time off between September 2005 and May 2006 and he competed in some higher level optional claimers this spring/summer losing to horses like Discreet Cat (in that ones seasonal debut), Silver Wagon, Greeleys Galaxy, and Its No Joke. He found the winner's circle in Hoosier's Michael Schaeffer Mile Stakes at Hoosier on October 7 and in his last start he was 8th of 12 in the Ack Ack on the Breeders Cup undercard.

Lifetime : 23 – 4 – 4 – 3 - $323,346
2006 : 9 – 1 – 1 – 1 - $82,826
2005 :10 – 2 – 1 – 1 - $193,520
2004 : 4 – 1 – 2 – 1 - $46,900

Also makes me think back to the minimally talented Ten Cents a Shine, whom Lukas down the Derby trail after the horse finished 6th of 8 in the Fountain of Youth, 8th of 10 in the San Felipe, and 8th of 9 in the Blue Grass. He ran a surprising 8th of 16 in the Derby, but regressed to his form when running 9th of 10 in the Preakness. He went to Frankel after that and was last seen running in claiming races for Dale Romans (assume he's no longer with Romans after his split with Ken Ramsey). Also have to assume that the decisions to push TCAS were as much Ramsey's as they were Lukas' but that horse had no right to be starting in the Derby or Preakness...